From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Mon Jul 1 23:20:12 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:20:12 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] CMU Mach sources? Message-ID: I finally got a chance to talk to someone who knows a hell of a lot about the i386 than I could ever hope to know.  I gave him all the materials and I think he spent more time replying to my email than doing the debugging. Basically the registers for entering protected mode with paging are backwards.  This is kind of funny as the port was done by Intel of all people. Anyway I reversed them and I now have the Mach kernel from 1988 booted under VMware. I have to say that it's super cool to finally have chased this one down. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Tue Jul 2 03:40:23 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:40:23 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] Mach 2.5 / MK35 booting on i386 (was CMU Mach sources?) Message-ID: As promised here is the diff & misc info on the build. I installed the Mt Xinu disks to create a build environment and uucp’d the sources from CD#4 of Kirks’ CSRG set (/local/MACH/386/sys). Grepping the source reveals it to be MK35. Which makes sense from the release notes as this was an i386 only release: ------8<------8<------8<------8< ***** MK Version MK35 (rvb) ***** This is an I386 architecture release only. It has been tested on an AT as well as the hypercube. No New features: --- -------- Except possibly that the if_pc586.c is not timing dependent any more. The big deal about this release is that all the files in the i386at directory and the files in Mach2.5 I386q are identical -- that is all improvements in the mainline have been merged to the 3.0 code and vice versa. NOTE: the 3.0 com driver has not been tested cause I did not have any hardware. Also I have lpr and if_par drivers that I did not even install for the same reason. (I needed to install com.c for the mouse support code.) ALSO, this release has the Prime copyrights changed to something less threatening, courtesy of Prime Computer Inc. Bug fix: The panic that rfr reported with the ram_to_ptr is no longer possible. ------8<------8<------8<------8< For people who like DMESG’s here it is: ------8<------8<------8<------8< boot: 442336+46792+115216[+38940+39072] Insert file system Sÿ boot: memory from 0x1000 to 0x7d0000 Kernel virtual space from 0xc0000000 to 0xc25d0000. Available physical space from 0xa000 to 0x7d0000 i386_init: virtual_avail = c07d0000, virtual_end = c25d0000 end c01938d8, sym c01938dc(981c) str = c019d0f8(98a4) [ preserving 78016 bytes of symbol table ] Mach/4.3 #5.1(I386x): Wed Jan 20 00:45:55 WET 1988; obj/STD+WS-afs-nfs (localhost) physical memory = 7.81 megabytes. vm_page_free_count = 689 using 200 buffers containing 0.78 megabytes of memory available memory = 5.55 megabytes. vm_page_free_count = 58e fdc0: port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6. fd0: port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6. (controller 0, slave 0) fd1: port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6. (controller 0, slave 1) com0: port = 3f8, spl = 6, pic = 4. (DOS COM1) lpr0: port = 378, spl = 6, pic = 7. par0: port = 378, spl = 6, pic = 7. root on `­b ------8<------8<------8<------8< The diff from the CD is as follows: ------8<------8<------8<------8< jsteve at 2006macpro:/mnt/c/temp/csrg$ diff -ruN sys mach25-i386 diff -ruN sys/Makeconf mach25-i386/Makeconf --- sys/Makeconf 1970-01-01 08:00:00.000000000 +0800 +++ mach25-i386/Makeconf 2019-06-24 15:24:49.000000000 +0800 @@ -0,0 +1,102 @@ +# +# Mach Operating System +# Copyright (c) 1989 Carnegie-Mellon University +# All rights reserved. The CMU software License Agreement specifies +# the terms and conditions for use and redistribution. +# +# +# HISTORY +# $Log: Makeconf,v $ +# Revision 2.16 91/09/25 18:51:17 mja +# Fix VAX_CONFIG so that processor number component is last (for +# SUP wild-carding to work); make MMAX_CONFIG consistent with +# other platforms as STD+ANY+EXP+64. +# [91/09/25 18:41:59 mja] +# +# Revision 2.15 91/09/24 20:07:07 mja +# Require new ${KERNEL_SERIES} macro in place of old ${RELEASE} +# even to specify the "latest" series; add temporary +# ${ENVIRON_BASE}; add silent include of Makeconf-local. +# [91/09/22 03:16:36 mja] +# +# Add SITE; set SOURCEDIR to MASTERSOURCEDIR if present (for build). +# [91/09/21 18:06:08 mja] +# +# Revision 2.14 91/08/30 09:37:19 berman +# Set up default config for MMAX which is STD+MP (multiprocessor) +# [91/07/30 12:19:40 ern] +# +# Revision 2.13 91/04/02 16:04:53 mbj +# Added {I,AT}386_CONFIG=STD+WS+EXP lines. +# Changed ${MACHINE} references to ${TARGET_MACHINE}. +# +# Revision 2.12 90/08/30 12:24:52 bohman +# Changes for mac2. +# [90/08/28 bohman] +# +# Revision 2.11 89/09/25 22:43:32 mja +# Correct mis-merged OBJECTDIR. +# +# Revision 2.10 89/09/25 22:20:03 mja +# Use SOURCEDIR instead of VPATH for shadowing. This means we +# can do away with the SRCSUFFIX stuff which "make" does by +# itself, and that Makefiles can use VPATH themselves. I also +# "simplified" the definition of CONFIG and "release_...". +# [89/07/06 bww] +# +# Revision 2.9 89/08/08 21:44:58 jsb +# Defined PMAX_CONFIG. +# [89/08/03 rvb] +# +# Revision 2.8 89/07/12 23:02:52 jjc +# Defined SUN4_CONFIG. +# [89/07/12 23:01:03 jjc] +# +# Revision 2.7 89/04/10 00:34:59 rpd +# Changed OBJECTDIR name to correspond to new organization. +# [89/04/06 mrt] +# +# Revision 2.6 89/02/25 14:12:18 gm0w +# Changes for cleanup. +# +# Revision 2.5 89/02/25 14:08:30 gm0w +# Changes for cleanup. +# +# Revision 2.4 88/11/14 15:04:01 gm0w +# Changed the standard configurations to correspond +# to the new names. +# [88/11/02 15:45:44 mrt] +# +# Revision 2.3 88/09/07 15:44:43 rpd +# Moved CONFIG macros here from Makefile, so that the user +# can easily customize them by modifying Makeconf. +# [88/09/07 01:52:32 rpd] +# +# Revision 2.2 88/07/15 15:11:46 mja +# Created. +# + +VAX_CONFIG = STD+ANY+EXP+16 +mac2_CONFIG = MACMACH-macos_emul +I386_CONFIG = STD+WS+EXP +AT386_CONFIG = STD+WS+EXP +MMAX_CONFIG = STD+ANY+EXP+64 + +#CONFIG = ${${TARGET_MACHINE}_CONFIG?${${TARGET_MACHINE}_CONFIG}:STD+ANY+EXP} +#CONFIG = STD+WS+EXP-afs-nfs +CONFIG = STD+WS-afs-nfs + +SITE = CMUCS + +SOURCEDIR = ${MASTERSOURCEDIR?${MASTERSOURCEDIR}:${SRCBASE}} + +#OBJECTDIR = ../../../obj/@sys/kernel/${KERNEL_SERIES} +OBJECTDIR = ./obj + +# XXX until build is fixed to set these XXX +ENVIRON_BASE = ${RELEASE_BASE} + +.EXPORT: ENVIRON_BASE + +# Provide for private customizations in a shadow directory +-include Makeconf-local diff -ruN sys/Makefile mach25-i386/Makefile --- sys/Makefile 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800 +++ mach25-i386/Makefile 2019-06-24 15:24:49.000000000 +0800 @@ -206,6 +206,12 @@ at386_cpu=i386 sun4_cpu=sun4 cpu=$(${machine}_cpu) +#echo "CPU IS $cpu" +AT386_cpu=i386 +I386_cpu=i386 +cpu=${${TARGET_MACHINE}_cpu?${${TARGET_MACHINE}_cpu}:${target_machine}} +#echo "CPU IS $cpu" + VAX_OUTPUT=Makefile SUN_OUTPUT=Makefile diff -ruN sys/conf/newvers.sh mach25-i386/conf/newvers.sh --- sys/conf/newvers.sh 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800 +++ mach25-i386/conf/newvers.sh 2019-06-24 15:25:15.000000000 +0800 @@ -56,8 +56,17 @@ v="${major}.${minor}(${variant}${edit}${patch})" d=`pwd` h=`hostname` t=`date` CONFIG=`cat vers.config` if [ -z "$d" -o -z "$h" -o -z "$t" -o -z "${CONFIG}" ]; then - exit 1 +# exit 1 +edit="386" +major=5 +minor=1 +variant="I" +patch="x" +copyright="/copyright.txt" +v="${major}.${minor}(${variant}${edit}${patch})" d=`pwd` h=`hostname` t=`date` fi +# + d=`expr "$d" : '.*/\([^/]*\)/[^/]*$'`/${CONFIG} ( /bin/echo "int version_major = ${major};" ; diff -ruN sys/i386/start.s mach25-i386/i386/start.s --- sys/i386/start.s 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800 +++ mach25-i386/i386/start.s 2019-07-01 23:47:25.208021800 +0800 @@ -210,13 +210,14 @@ lgdt (%eax) + / flip cr3 before you flip cr0 + mov %edx, %cr3 + / turn PG on mov %cr0, %eax or $PAGEBIT, %eax mov %eax, %cr0 - mov %edx, %cr3 - ljmp $KTSSSEL, $0x0 / ********************************************************************* diff -ruN sys/standi386at/boot/disk.c mach25-i386/standi386at/boot/disk.c --- sys/standi386at/boot/disk.c 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800 +++ mach25-i386/standi386at/boot/disk.c 2019-07-01 23:51:11.261850100 +0800 @@ -340,11 +340,11 @@ #ifndef FIND_PART *rel_off = vp->part[part].p_start; - if (vp->part[part].p_tag != V_ROOT) + if (vp->part[part].p_flag != V_ROOT) printf("warning... partition %d not root\n", part); #else for (i = 0; i < vp->nparts; i++) - if (vp->part[i].p_tag == V_ROOT) + if (vp->part[i].p_flag == V_ROOT) break; if (i == vp->nparts) { ------8<------8<------8<------8< -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauer at technologists.com Tue Jul 2 03:48:31 2019 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:48:31 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] reviving timbl's WorldWideWeb browser on NEXTSTEP 486 on Dell JAWS Message-ID: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com> https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/ While trying to get back to Dell UNIX Ethernet support in VirtualBox, I ended up reviving Tim’s CERN browser... *July 1, 2019 -- * *tl;dr sustaining Dell UNIX       -> prolonging JAWS          -> exploring NEXTSTEP 486             -> reviving timbl's WorldWideWeb browser * just *k*eepin' *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n permanent reference link pixel "Genghis Khan and his brother Don Could not *k*eep *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n" (1971) "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" - Bob Dylan Charlie -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail:sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web:https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Jul 2 04:58:13 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:58:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] reviving timbl's WorldWideWeb browser on NEXTSTEP 486 on Dell JAWS In-Reply-To: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com> References: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com> Message-ID: Charlie -- very cool. On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:55 PM Charles H Sauer wrote: > > https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/ > > While trying to get back to Dell UNIX Ethernet support in VirtualBox, I > ended up reviving Tim’s CERN browser... > > *July 1, 2019 -- * > > > > > *tl;dr sustaining Dell UNIX > -> prolonging JAWS > -> exploring > NEXTSTEP 486 -> > reviving timbl's > WorldWideWeb browser * > > > just *k*eepin' *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n [image: permanent reference link] > > [image: pixel] > "Genghis Khan and his brother Don > Could not *k*eep *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n" > (1971) "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" > - Bob Dylan > > Charlie > > -- > > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com > fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ > Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jul 3 23:49:12 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:49:12 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Mach 2.5 / MK35 booting on i386 (was CMU Mach sources?) In-Reply-To: (Jason Stevens's message of "Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:40:23 +0800") References: Message-ID: <7w36jn9qjr.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jason Stevens wrote: > ***** MK Version MK35 (rvb) ***** Speaking of which. I have been trying without success to reach Robert Baron (RVB) regarding his RMODE text editor. I have tried email addresses to CMU and U of Pittsburgh; does anyone know any other ways? From prd at decarchive.org Fri Jul 5 20:50:52 2019 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:50:52 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Classic / NOP machines becoming available in Berlin (inc. DECs, Commodores, Apples, HPs, SGIs and more) Message-ID: <5328A541-E9A1-4CD2-AAFC-827BDF40DBB5@decarchive.org> Dear all, Apologies for this semi-spam message from a long-time appreciator of classic computers and nostalgic obsolete products, but I hope this will be of interest to at least a few people here. So, yes, by way of context, I've been acquiring what I consider to be characterful and/or historically interesting computers for coming up to, maybe, 15 years now, with the intention of being able to curate multiple, interactive temporary exhibits on the history of computing, but since moving continents (amongst other things), my paths and passions have changed, so I am currently in the process of re-testing (and repairing) my machines, and will be trying to sell them off in the coming weeks and months. Under different circumstances, finding people (or groups) with similar interests and plans would have been an equal-first priority, but given my more recent 'life changes', sale price — and the ability to better pursue my new focuses — is now more of a factor. (That said, if you are (or know) a developer of an open source machine emulator who could use one of these machines --- particularly one of the more obscure ones --- please do get in touch, as the prospect of people being able to keep older / rarer operating systems and software running once the physical machines are not longer available or working /is/ actually still kinda important to me, and I'd be open to a lower price and/or setting up some remote access with some kind of kludged-together iLO and vaguely 'dual-ported' disk access via, e.g., an SD2SCSI setup.) But before I list them on eBay (and/or by way of a heads up), I wanted to let people here know, just in case I have something that someone here particularly wants / needs / could use. The current list of systems I will be parting with is accessible at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QqUrO11gnn4fwAPDxqO_phKDt1M0O15G7wJxHoQrL9s but some (hopefully) highlights include (*big breath*): DEC: MicroPDP-11/53+; MicroVAX 2000; VAXstation 4000 VLC/60/90A/96; VAX 4000 100A, 105; DECstation 5000/240, 260 (MIPS-based); DEC 3000/300X; Personal Workstation 600au; AlphaServer 4100; AlphaServer DS20, DS25 systems; Letterwriter 100; VT 101, 220, 520 terminals HP: HP rx2800 Integrity2; 9000 715/100 and Visualize C110 PA-RISC systems SGI: Indy and O2 systems SUN: ELC, SPARCstation Voyager (the portable one), 5 and 20; Ultra 1; Ultra 5; Netra T1-105; Enterprise T5240 Apple: IIc, IIe Platinums, IIgs; Mac 512ke, Mac Pluses; SE/30 and Quadra 700s (also for running A/UX); iMac G3s and a G4 Commodore: PET 3000 systems, PET 8032-SK; various C64 / C64C and 128D systems; SX-64; Music Maker keyboards (the big one, inc. SFX modules); Amiga 1000 Apologies again, please feel free to contact me with any queries or reasonable offers, or even if you'd just like to be kept in the loop as more machines become available, and all the best. Thanks in advance, Peter P.S. In light of the responses I've received to posts I've made elsewhere, I've included a 'Default Reserve' price in the aforementioned spreadsheet. I've written more about this there, but the gist of it is that, given that very few of the more obscure / awesome machines have gone through eBay recently, it's kinda hard for me to gauge what a fair and reasonable (to me and the future buyers) price is for quite a few of my machines --- I've started to put in rough figures for /some/ of them based upon 'what feels right', but if there's nothing there, please don't ask me what I might want for them as I don't know yet (though do feel free to make me an offer). Thanks again! From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jul 9 01:14:50 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 09:14:50 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive Message-ID: Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive. Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._) mixed in. Is that on purpose? Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Jul 9 09:23:13 2019 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:23:13 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:14:50AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive. > Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._) > mixed in. Is that on purpose? > Warner No, I didn't see them. I've removed them from the archive on Minnie. Thanks, Warren From dave at horsfall.org Tue Jul 9 10:53:16 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:53:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Testing... Or, Why I Did It My Way (tm) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jun 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote: > So, why isn't any traffic coming my way? And for the smart-arses (ObUS: > smart-asses) out there who think I must be blocking it, nope, I watch my > mail reject log like a hawk (I have all sorts of reporting scripts) and > Minnie was definitely not there. Well, it turned out that I *was* blocking Minnie, but her name was not in the logs; it was just an IP address that ended up on my woodpecker list... I just saw my first message from TUHS :-) Sorry for the noise. -- Dave From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 9 12:02:24 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:02:24 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Testing... Or, Why I Did It My Way (tm) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08266000-6c22-5377-5d7e-8ec018322bbc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/8/19 6:53 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > Well, it turned out that I *was* blocking Minnie, but her name was not in > the logs; it was just an IP address that ended up on my woodpecker list... Oops! > I just saw my first message from TUHS :-) > > Sorry for the noise. So you were truly channeling the the spirit of Unix. Things occasionally break in an unexpected way, and then we fix them. :-) Welcome back. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From arnold at skeeve.com Tue Jul 9 18:35:55 2019 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 02:35:55 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive In-Reply-To: <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <201907090835.x698Zt8O030442@freefriends.org> Hi. Warren Toomey wrote: > On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:14:50AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive. > > Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._) > > mixed in. Is that on purpose? > > Warner > > No, I didn't see them. I've removed them from the archive on Minnie. > > Thanks, Warren I still see a bunch under ./Distributions/Other/OS_Course after doing rsync -avz .... Or do I need to add something like --delete to my rsync flags? Thanks, Arnold From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 02:28:04 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:28:04 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions! I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files. I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week. Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing described here: http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt and produce the graphical map it contains?     Mary Ann On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" > floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have > historical interest. > > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not > mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. > The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which > are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are > ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to > be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or > what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based > Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. > > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have > anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with > the GRF file. > > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that > fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for > the early ASCII ones. > > Thanks, > >     Mary Ann > > From katolaz at freaknet.org Wed Jul 10 02:53:35 2019 From: katolaz at freaknet.org (KatolaZ) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:53:35 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <20190709165335.xdfxsrmeq6uwtmy7@unixfarts.net> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:28:04AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the > great suggestions! > > I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial > tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug > out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although > the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied). > I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied > over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files. > > I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ > > I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week. > > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing > described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > Hi, if nobody has a "leroy" at hand, I could give it a go using a slightly more modern graph drawing stuff (starting from the same files). Just shout. HND Enzo Nicosia -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 03:12:15 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:12:15 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > thing described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > > Mary Ann > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else can easily produce readable output from this file. -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: leroy.out Type: application/octet-stream Size: 40901 bytes Desc: not available URL: From web at loomcom.com Wed Jul 10 03:25:44 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:25:44 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> thing described here: >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> Mary Ann > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 10 03:33:00 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:33:00 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: Henry - what did you try for your parameters to plot? and did you try: plot -T png which should create a more modern png file. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail > wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> thing described here: >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> Mary Ann >> > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files > through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to > plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything > useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got > garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else > can easily produce readable output from this file. > > -Henry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 03:34:09 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:34:09 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail > wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > >> thing described here: > >> > >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > >> > >> and produce the graphical map it contains? > >> > >> Mary Ann > > > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached > files through it. > > I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen > minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't > mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from the docs: -- The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor- ward. The source code is available on request. Filters currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the HP7221A, and the Qume. -- -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Jul 10 04:29:26 2019 From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:29:26 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] groff_man question Message-ID: <201907091829.x69ITQUX003027@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> I wouldn't call it an error, merely a misleading sentence. .EX/.EE is, after all, an extension in Gnu, albeit not original to Gnu. And I didn't intend to impugn anybody. The sentence, "Ingo Schwarze stated incorrectly" was apparently slipped into the quotation to provide missing context. I do appreciate, however, how quickly the inexactness was repaired. Doug | Doug McIlroy wrote on Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 11:17:32PM -0400: | > Ingo Schwarze stated incorrectly: | | >> EE This is a non-standard GNU extension. In mandoc(1), it does the | >> same as the roff(7) fi request (switch to fill mode). | | >> | >> EX This is a non-standard GNU extension. In mandoc(1), it does the | >> same as the roff(7) nf request (switch to no-fill mode). | | > "Gnu extension" should be read as "extension adopted by Gnu". | > .EX/.EE was introduced in 9th Edition Unix. | | Thank you for pointing out the error, i corrected the manual page | in OpenBSD and in portable mandoc, see the commit below. From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 05:19:05 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:19:05 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: >> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail >> wrote: >> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> >> thing described here: >> >> >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> >> >> Mary Ann >> > >> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached >> files through it. >> >> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen >> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't >> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. >> > > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz > > It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from > the docs: > -- > The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must > be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters > recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla > seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey > fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with > their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion > which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor- > ward. The source code is available on request. Filters > currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the > HP7221A, and the Qume. > -- > > -Henry > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for this sort of display. https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich.salz at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 05:41:22 2019 From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:41:22 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: I remember doing something similar for the "NNTP backbone," with the help of Brian Reid and his mapmaking postscript tools. I don't have any or data. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Jul 10 06:08:07 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 13:08:07 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] UREP Message-ID: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca> Back in the day I had the pleasure of firing up what was possibly the last North American BITNET node (certainly the last one on NetNorth), on a Sun 3/xxx deskside server running SunOS 3.5(+). (AUCS, at Athabasca U.) I'm curious to know if the UREP source code that drove that link ever escaped. I recall it being licensed code at the time, but from academia vs. a commercial product. I don't know if that also applied to the bisync serial driver. --lyndon From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 06:09:18 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:09:18 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for > this sort of display. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing Impressive. Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used? I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and learn along the way. Please and thank you. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 06:54:46 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:54:46 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Thank you, Henry! I was able to download the SVG and render it (mostly) legible for the map packet for the event tomorrow. Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt Thanks!     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 12:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent > wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito > wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail > > wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do > the "leroy" > >>  thing described here: > >> > >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > >> > >>  and produce the graphical map it contains? > >> > >>  Mary Ann > > > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the > attached files through it. > > I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did > about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to > find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd > enjoy playing with it. > > > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz > > It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of > plot; from the docs: > -- >      The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must > be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters > recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla > seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey > fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with > their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion > which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor- > ward.   The  source  code  is available on request. Filters > currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the > HP7221A, and the Qume. > -- > > -Henry > > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries > that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix > 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here > are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most > useful for this sort of display. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing > > -Henry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 06:58:44 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:58:44 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:10, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that > > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 > > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are > > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for > > this sort of display. > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing > > Impressive. > > Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used? > > I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and > learn along the way. > > Please and thank you. > My apologies, I am sometimes not as careful with documentation as I should be. I'm not up for transcribing every last command, but I can walk you through the basic idea. This assumes that you have extracted the necessary files from http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt , which you have to do by hand because this is before shar. This was all done in SIMH, using a simulated PDP-11/70 running Ultrix 3.1, but I believe that what I did would work just as well on 2.xBSD. The 1981 Usenix tape ( https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz ) was attached to a virtual TK-50 drive (SIMH can now attach .tar files directly, with no conversion!) and extracted. The "ucol" directory contains the sources for leroy. The first step is to rebuild the plot library in leroy/plotsrc. Remove plib and *.o and run make, then back to the leroy directory, clean and make. The makefile installs /bin/leroy for you after building. Run "/bin/leroy < map.leroy" and it gives you leroy.out, which is in the special extended plot format that UCol developed. You need to convert this to Tek 4014, and there is a program for doing that in ucol/plot. But first you have to build the modified libt4014, which is in ucol/libplot. "make lilbt4014.a" will get you what you need there. Back to ucol/plot, edit the makefile to use your newly built libt4014 instead of the system's, clean out everything there and build tek. But wait! You still need the Hershey fonts in the right place, so move the contents of ucol/vroff to be /usr/src/cmd/vroff (or you could modify the source to put it wherever you want, I guess). Then finally you can pipe leroy.out through tek to get a 4014 file, which will be readable by a modern tek2plot. -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 07:30:55 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:30:55 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt I don't think that file is all of what's needed. I looked at it and saw the following: > …Also this news submission is broken > into two articles, with the graph(1G) compatible stuff separated from that > which is specific to leroy. > > The files and descriptions of their contents are as follows: > > First article: > --- This message > map.leroy command file for leroy to plot map > gmap.leroy command file for leroy to plot map with gnodes file > nodes leroy commands to draw circles at site locations > gnodes leroy commands to draw graphic characters at site > locations > sites leroy commands for labeling nodes with site names > > Second article: > usa.outline USA outline (graph(1G) format) > usa.states USA state boundaries (graph(1G) format) > net news connections between sites (graph(1G) format) As such, I think the usa.outline, usa.states, and net are missing. :-( I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 07:35:00 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:35:00 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <5bfdd7ce-6e88-e87e-5676-2bc1f0b5aa7e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/9/19 3:30 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives. There's no time like the present. https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- 2.365702 4.173272 2.354666 4.225278 2.314042 4.255296 2.312994 4.308004 2.272308 4.337952 2.281452 4.390995 2.320751 4.424070 2.341700 4.372401 2.372799 4.320927 2.413280 4.290846 2.454545 4.229559 2.415253 4.196319 2.375940 4.162915 2.365702 4.173272 " " 9.03614 5.998824 9.0441 5.936522 9.15194 5.725535 9.16827 5.674161 9.20616 5.614470 9.22255 5.563131 9.26707 5.535553 9.29789 5.538381 " " 8.98594 5.910089 8.99231 5.858008 9.00881 5.806939 9.00478 5.754053 8.97168 5.687859 8.98916 5.626195 8.97605 5.561687 8.98316 5.499041 9.00012 5.437207 8.99578 5.384164 9.01157 5.332603 9.02288 5.322970 " " 8.7045 5.800622 8.71929 5.760106 8.73643 5.698575 8.76242 5.648286 8.76951 5.585785 8.78525 5.534706 8.80227 5.472909 8.8573 5.435418 8.87417 5.373569 8.88981 5.322211 8.9167 5.261124 8.92317 5.198392 8.91935 5.134582 8.93483 5.082904 8.95014 5.031168 8.96661 4.968913 8.98176 4.917109 8.97665 4.863785 8.99903 4.844209 " " 8.91442 5.282165 9.22114 5.393486 9.24711 5.438306 9.29601 5.463964 " " 8.93263 5.103966 9.01194 5.131661 9.06294 5.136087 9.14035 5.184890 9.20075 5.200804 9.25191 5.205323 9.30438 5.199522 9.33978 5.160111 9.38427 5.132223 " " 9.22123 5.202647 9.28896 5.049230 " " 7.87944 4.826269 7.8945 4.764378 8.62822 4.984714 8.67154 4.956233 8.69664 4.905429 8.74916 4.888203 8.79261 4.860003 8.95087 4.808622 8.94661 4.744511 " " 7.7498 4.713057 7.88879 4.185428 8.7278 4.430706 8.73545 4.463181 8.80394 4.499849 8.83092 4.544382 8.86881 4.579010 8.81528 4.606936 8.78023 4.657505 8.74595 4.697489 8.75149 4.750814 8.76696 4.804937 8.78241 4.859114 8.78139 4.869644 " " 8.71856 4.419421 8.84524 4.108027 8.95449 4.158270 " " 8.85307 4.001358 8.92235 4.038270 " " 8.07574 4.228608 8.09113 4.155494 8.14028 4.168989 8.17805 4.203002 8.20507 4.247165 8.25661 4.229354 8.29443 4.263556 8.34393 4.277249 8.38645 4.248277 8.4392 4.219629 8.48275 4.180111 8.5356 4.151481 8.56835 4.121665 8.56137 4.078590 " " 7.83314 4.403452 7.82876 4.329410 7.83395 4.256036 7.84066 4.161438 7.81456 4.107102 7.77784 4.062670 7.73033 4.028193 7.71533 3.953542 7.66653 3.940120 7.66201 3.855411 7.6257 3.800563 7.6105 3.725612 7.64274 3.684882 7.68542 3.634191 7.73756 3.594427 7.76997 3.553619 7.82092 3.535113 7.86935 3.558897 7.94848 3.573782 7.98673 3.607707 8.04529 3.632251 8.05209 3.686077 8.06816 3.750776 8.09478 3.805571 8.10989 3.880845 8.11639 3.934172 8.16796 3.916040 8.19526 3.960115 8.22009 4.036079 8.26734 4.081410 8.30385 4.136683 8.29989 4.189584 8.37105 4.183444 8.41826 4.229015 " " 6.73893 4.465357 7.06577 4.525392 7.06782 4.494132 7.32885 4.540820 " " 7.06782 4.494132 7.19592 3.882785 " " 7.61777 3.768325 7.55522 3.817846 7.50458 3.836064 7.46708 3.802480 7.41703 3.810278 7.36861 3.797130 7.31814 3.815533 7.24558 3.874936 7.19592 3.882785 7.18983 3.819367 7.14401 3.764265 7.09632 3.740716 7.06144 3.664933 7.03668 3.579327 6.96894 3.565224 6.93156 3.531679 6.88333 3.518733 6.83565 3.495269 6.78627 3.503323 6.73767 3.500885 6.69004 3.477471 6.66138 3.465451 " " 6.61464 4.437840 6.69663 3.888080 6.69 3.835182 6.69292 3.782822 6.72436 3.742341 6.71815 3.678947 6.69247 3.614686 6.66565 3.571106 6.66833 3.518661 6.66138 3.465451 6.64461 3.411976 6.62792 3.358288 6.60093 3.314854 6.60346 3.262094 6.54418 3.280402 6.486635 3.256408 6.50899 3.204681 6.492428 3.140464 6.464180 3.107283 6.427027 3.052686 6.439602 3.000211 6.422194 2.946258 6.385460 2.881048 6.369081 2.805709 6.371828 2.742060 6.333647 2.708418 6.316233 2.654311 6.289235 2.589266 6.271713 2.534926 6.243746 2.490944 6.215999 2.447038 6.208260 2.393363 6.221642 2.308080 6.214245 2.243546 6.236708 2.180075 6.239279 2.115566 " " 6.239279 2.115566 6.251218 2.062170 6.263913 1.987357 6.226786 1.921015 6.200353 1.833400 6.192643 1.768035 6.164579 1.723510 6.205320 1.692670 6.50126 1.726330 6.55054 1.706417 6.53295 1.651482 6.57341 1.598373 6.59455 1.544709 6.58519 1.533512 " " 6.8165 1.607481 6.77529 1.975748 6.75503 2.737929 6.73456 2.758431 " " 6.353054 2.719866 6.81228 2.772681 7.21213 2.833437 7.6444 2.906536 7.70297 2.930540 7.76057 2.976248 7.80929 3.000030 7.85873 3.012951 7.93866 3.016852 8.00807 3.030849 8.05825 3.033176 8.10992 3.003279 8.16124 2.984183 8.23058 3.009233 8.28041 3.022483 8.33125 3.014092 8.37333 2.983644 8.42552 2.953741 8.47816 2.912737 8.54105 2.872413 8.59394 2.831179 " " 8.92824 3.651500 8.50669 3.518985 8.1781 3.425795 7.86041 3.366559 7.44705 3.281880 6.63951 3.126291 6.464180 3.107283 " " 7.73756 3.594427 7.73138 3.530239 7.67357 3.495436 7.63638 3.450885 7.60033 3.385174 7.57292 3.341288 7.52452 3.317488 7.49602 3.294854 " " 7.86041 3.366559 7.85329 3.312637 7.82561 3.268562 7.78758 3.234598 7.73012 3.188898 7.67156 3.164845 7.63458 3.109537 7.58559 3.096431 7.54798 3.051951 7.49955 3.028400 7.47296 2.962922 7.43484 2.929131 7.43733 2.875606 " " 7.67367 2.918629 7.64694 2.852893 7.68859 2.811699 7.73917 2.792460 7.77095 2.750697 7.80285 2.708973 7.84445 2.667723 7.89573 2.637493 7.94706 2.607138 7.97966 2.543430 8.04159 2.502450 8.0838 2.449832 8.10592 2.396139 8.1472 2.365180 8.16934 2.311457 8.22068 2.280511 8.23072 2.280986 " " 8.18195 1.916484 8.13186 1.914911 8.08131 1.924238 8.07326 1.858000 8.02348 1.845273 7.5276 1.796203 7.48698 1.827644 7.43677 1.858817 6.9574 1.786970 6.99987 1.679590 7.00142 1.624942 " " 7.46693 1.837800 7.43502 1.913258 7.43323 1.967657 7.42173 2.021918 7.40919 2.097388 7.43702 2.152879 7.42512 2.206675 7.40353 2.260063 7.3718 2.312975 7.3497 2.376904 7.3275 2.440778 7.30466 2.515409 7.29223 2.579291 7.28016 2.632546 7.25809 2.685380 7.23559 2.748760 7.22334 2.801639 7.21213 2.833437 " " 6.498174 3.225194 6.446986 3.254489 6.415030 3.295243 6.411997 3.358383 6.380096 3.399158 6.338362 3.439198 6.287221 3.468391 6.235559 3.507911 6.242095 3.571359 6.259206 3.624641 6.256271 3.676919 6.206394 3.684968 6.157120 3.682542 6.154307 3.734802 6.112134 3.785173 6.080277 3.825598 6.030068 3.843868 6.006997 3.905546 5.983900 3.967229 6.000150 4.030684 6.026660 4.084117 6.053147 4.137613 6.059997 4.190147 6.027081 4.250825 6.073676 4.294986 6.139811 4.339964 6.165484 4.403623 6.140916 4.485721 6.088748 4.534882 6.046544 4.584624 5.995848 4.613110 5.972663 4.674158 5.969503 4.726023 5.936998 4.776120 5.933935 4.827749 5.921098 4.878804 5.870553 4.907421 5.829819 4.936226 5.787936 4.985907 5.747255 5.014698 5.697567 5.033075 5.673363 5.114548 5.670274 5.165943 5.667168 5.217343 " " 5.667168 5.217343 5.635695 5.257226 5.651784 5.309636 5.678159 5.352358 5.714818 5.385202 5.706357 5.518761 5.733182 5.551029 " " 6.481755 5.250535 6.458432 5.300931 6.426232 5.340491 6.412683 5.391449 6.361860 5.419556 6.311879 5.437464 6.253806 5.434422 6.212966 5.463228 6.154251 5.470281 6.056255 5.485607 6.014824 5.524649 5.994851 5.533953 " " 6.55505 4.611475 6.067977 4.554554 " " 5.936513 4.786509 5.093155 4.723548 " " 5.095742 4.474889 5.054844 4.514208 5.005394 4.532773 4.955271 4.561394 4.809776 4.554224 4.759778 4.583082 3.844683 4.592314 " " 3.812335 4.111606 3.925777 6.055017 " " 4.921589 6.046921 4.933517 5.996059 4.941248 5.841847 4.962831 5.791188 4.999171 5.638330 5.005902 5.504553 5.019049 5.433142 5.040802 5.382469 5.046081 5.279546 5.009659 5.236629 5.041149 5.186384 5.081089 5.157417 5.084026 4.515704 5.171906 4.312385 5.174484 4.260517 5.205853 4.220517 5.210878 4.116512 5.223114 4.065138 5.245177 4.014048 5.247779 3.962157 5.288835 3.922314 5.311097 3.871300 5.360940 3.852736 5.401621 3.823329 5.374237 3.780158 5.386632 3.728598 5.418110 3.688199 5.458754 3.658903 5.498868 3.019401 5.524731 2.883097 5.540715 2.745972 5.559371 2.310244 " " 5.674290 2.154788 5.723432 2.157127 5.782156 2.170475 5.851185 2.173650 5.910274 2.176464 6.008831 2.180836 6.058239 2.183020 6.146708 2.197578 6.225830 2.201020 " " 5.744901 1.324999 5.752537 1.390816 5.770152 1.446219 5.758331 1.500017 5.766345 1.554589 5.783566 1.620502 5.790674 1.696676 5.759465 1.738601 5.737814 1.791654 5.715232 1.866299 5.683548 1.918786 5.681079 1.983310 5.668605 2.047275 5.676452 2.101428 5.674290 2.154788 5.652296 2.207361 5.659536 2.272160 5.609394 2.291248 5.559371 2.310244 5.518701 2.340291 5.468159 2.370039 5.418168 2.388958 5.360031 2.364763 5.311272 2.351559 5.262194 2.349261 5.213969 2.325639 5.154012 2.343956 5.094748 2.351522 5.047400 2.306456 5.035355 2.359310 4.986617 2.346162 4.936644 2.364895 4.888487 2.341077 4.876367 2.394024 4.816496 2.412141 4.757985 2.398536 4.708046 2.417252 4.658971 2.414659 4.637082 2.466892 4.587965 2.464278 4.537413 2.493527 4.505716 2.545142 4.505747 3.001370 3.954273 2.993665 " " 3.959329 3.110356 3.914234 1.868158 3.199684 1.888807 3.211728 1.845942 " " 2.716406 1.758635 2.952809 4.187438 " " 2.638971 4.457592 2.218938 4.535988 1.755527 4.625518 1.694852 4.634254 1.308207 4.718649 .866805 4.836536 .389516 4.968956 " " 1.103349 4.766903 .921191 4.046892 1.715484 2.839761 1.717152 2.796642 1.750287 2.733195 1.763132 2.668746 1.805741 2.627785 1.745213 2.602586 1.705782 2.567536 1.708002 2.513051 1.679689 2.456866 1.640208 2.421593 1.632799 2.355581 1.675298 2.325209 1.657357 2.269250 1.617294 2.244684 " " 1.715859 2.829054 1.744532 2.884670 1.747560 3.090216 1.787143 3.124694 1.829136 3.094424 1.879175 3.118609 2.128719 4.543289 " " 1.613743 4.653036 1.713550 5.077156 1.733601 5.130088 1.743814 5.182889 1.724013 5.255879 1.754261 5.298508 1.794443 5.330963 1.814690 5.383914 1.854868 5.437189 1.894931 5.490321 1.895397 5.542710 1.855828 5.583667 1.846390 5.635718 1.994714 6.326756 " " .866458 5.916045 .926888 5.895201 .935200 5.832129 .923358 5.768846 .973473 5.737601 1.105437 5.738680 1.165425 5.697406 1.286220 5.677942 1.336882 5.688994 1.397330 5.689857 1.477532 5.680786 1.547816 5.692386 1.846250 5.614775 " " 2.140264 6.287978 2.129339 6.214993 2.108288 6.110450 2.107569 6.048159 2.136159 5.975811 2.135603 5.923926 2.164426 5.862082 2.193645 5.821213 2.222790 5.769892 2.232308 5.707468 2.271497 5.677400 2.281270 5.625605 2.251716 5.572642 2.261431 5.510333 2.221929 5.478060 2.231877 5.415708 2.281244 5.417146 2.340626 5.387697 2.340744 5.335517 2.360828 5.273438 2.351179 5.220949 2.400734 5.191364 2.411087 5.129074 2.460793 5.109777 2.519991 5.101466 2.579047 5.113693 2.648335 5.084984 2.657663 5.137320 2.707454 5.087049 2.727436 5.056571 " " 1.913689 3.313555 2.066762 3.289015 2.583597 3.218839 3.075281 3.169892 3.543352 3.130856 4.077453 3.116621 4.530574 3.108258 5.001988 3.121640 5.493508 3.135082 " " 5.498868 3.019401 6.316019 3.089733 6.329383 3.016292 6.291835 2.972063 6.361691 2.964758 6.431042 2.967986 " " 5.992046 3.998957 5.940007 4.048354 5.246320 3.993297 " " 5.311097 3.871300 4.145869 3.856037 " " 4.126998 3.108552 4.155861 4.096632 3.427630 4.156550 2.604034 4.235497 2.745295 5.192586 3.313066 5.130709 3.867490 5.091467 " " 3.879989 5.309245 4.506088 5.305892 5.044449 5.310464 " " -------------- next part -------------- 7.35417 4.730354 7.35984 4.782869 7.40709 4.806746 7.40299 4.858605 7.40863 4.911202 7.45497 4.945272 7.48087 4.988597 7.48553 5.051466 7.4811 5.103313 7.46695 5.154607 7.46267 5.206246 7.47676 5.269680 7.48972 5.343297 7.46579 5.393734 7.43295 5.433167 7.44768 5.486177 7.48052 5.446787 7.5134 5.407208 7.55606 5.368610 7.59221 5.402118 7.61642 5.351892 7.66516 5.355041 7.71297 5.368823 7.67989 5.408216 7.72773 5.421857 7.71214 5.483154 7.67029 5.511553 7.63715 5.550980 7.58546 5.578557 7.54374 5.606799 7.51951 5.657088 7.46149 5.652990 7.40349 5.649175 7.35327 5.666505 7.3051 5.663469 7.25785 5.649954 7.20899 5.657016 7.16175 5.643642 7.10418 5.639842 7.05623 5.636851 6.99795 5.643499 6.96571 5.682979 6.91884 5.669637 6.90485 5.720504 " " 6.90485 5.720504 6.88145 5.770761 6.83384 5.767886 6.83886 5.819777 6.83454 5.871111 6.79375 5.899673 6.779 5.960851 6.74703 6.000076 6.70245 5.966421 6.64483 5.973145 6.60453 6.001604 6.58137 6.051849 6.54783 6.111640 6.51621 6.151196 6.468605 6.148436 6.411192 6.145100 6.363315 6.142273 6.313834 6.160001 6.265226 6.167497 6.269324 6.116360 6.263926 6.064342 6.218603 6.030897 6.241550 6.104484 6.207320 6.050855 6.182646 5.997966 6.177835 6.059472 6.142045 6.026679 6.118126 5.963551 6.092412 5.920813 6.057200 5.877690 6.011496 5.844397 5.956273 5.810413 5.920163 5.777426 5.874342 5.744224 5.848426 5.701421 5.822467 5.658945 5.768890 5.594242 5.733182 5.551029 5.781834 5.543261 5.838145 5.566907 5.922526 5.602256 5.916364 5.550427 5.975658 5.532904 6.022962 5.545854 " " 6.022962 5.545854 6.059450 5.578600 6.115043 5.612714 6.161673 5.635904 6.197971 5.668860 6.233337 5.712080 6.267992 5.765603 6.304071 5.798440 6.351402 5.811562 6.326568 5.758447 6.300838 5.715807 6.285387 5.663233 6.332880 5.676233 6.382798 5.658481 6.432728 5.640667 6.464835 5.601134 6.51387 5.593541 6.57163 5.586496 6.60714 5.619744 6.64268 5.652882 6.69016 5.655662 6.73687 5.668798 6.7724 5.701896 6.81913 5.715145 6.82341 5.663859 6.87282 5.646083 6.92054 5.649061 6.96142 5.620573 6.99371 5.581088 6.96851 5.538100 6.92054 5.535202 6.89523 5.492159 6.85439 5.520897 6.805 5.538556 6.75814 5.525455 6.72238 5.492224 6.67557 5.478986 6.64071 5.435679 6.60565 5.392232 6.62078 5.444741 6.57639 5.400770 6.55344 5.451272 6.53909 5.388241 6.51576 5.314529 " " 6.51576 5.314529 6.490053 5.271603 6.484111 5.219636 6.457745 5.176780 6.432231 5.123642 6.479556 5.146900 6.51526 5.190324 6.5477 5.140324 6.52404 5.066432 6.52766 5.014754 6.51293 4.951890 6.52679 4.890364 6.51252 4.816874 6.50639 4.764690 6.52961 4.703640 6.54264 4.652483 6.55643 4.590706 6.55016 4.538490 6.59196 4.488674 6.61464 4.437840 6.65525 4.408720 6.71195 4.432715 6.75685 4.487233 6.78163 4.551174 6.79613 4.624889 6.80216 4.677332 6.79797 4.739475 6.77494 4.790224 6.74235 4.840303 6.7196 4.890903 6.71505 4.952975 6.70174 5.003996 6.71644 5.067221 6.72076 5.139922 6.72636 5.192071 6.75052 5.255637 6.78553 5.299223 6.79917 5.248287 6.84874 5.230497 6.8351 5.281406 6.83106 5.332891 6.86614 5.376557 6.85241 5.427456 6.85783 5.479556 " " 6.85783 5.479556 6.91612 5.472893 6.97442 5.465997 7.01534 5.437614 7.06424 5.430180 7.11322 5.422941 7.14562 5.383509 7.14037 5.331162 7.17369 5.281369 7.18759 5.230412 7.18208 5.178014 7.16782 5.114933 7.1315 5.081499 7.12671 5.018782 7.16788 4.989958 7.2034 5.033871 7.19926 5.085668 7.24439 5.130106 7.2938 5.122705 7.32636 5.083094 7.35077 5.022218 7.37612 4.950716 7.40863 4.911202 " " 7.35984 4.782869 7.44052 4.756585 7.40377 4.722882 7.35417 4.730354 7.32804 4.686936 7.37085 4.637428 7.43863 4.652043 7.47378 4.706430 7.50972 4.750283 7.57261 4.827384 7.60936 4.861213 7.70753 4.867549 7.76663 4.871306 7.78996 4.946020 7.83654 4.980483 7.88488 4.994254 7.93424 4.997541 7.96109 5.030980 7.96846 4.947580 7.9334 4.892815 7.88846 4.837344 7.85152 4.803566 7.8253 4.760034 7.76863 4.724736 7.7119 4.689740 7.675 4.656156 7.6282 4.621562 7.59291 4.567168 7.5355 4.542617 7.48862 4.508406 7.42909 4.515229 7.37936 4.522725 7.32885 4.540820 7.29652 4.580661 7.32212 4.634426 7.32804 4.686936 " " 7.96109 5.030980 7.92599 5.091133 7.83816 5.074843 7.822 5.146882 7.85856 5.180718 7.88425 5.224203 7.92069 5.258025 7.96808 5.282329 8.01542 5.306576 8.06364 5.320555 8.10026 5.354617 8.15162 5.337360 8.21114 5.342002 8.18606 5.392382 8.13764 5.378297 8.19392 5.413768 8.25029 5.449597 8.29877 5.463711 8.33525 5.497912 8.36085 5.541666 8.394 5.607077 8.41932 5.651000 8.45334 5.706200 8.50075 5.730902 8.46444 5.696714 8.42922 5.651936 8.40494 5.597482 8.37958 5.553636 8.35514 5.499368 8.32977 5.455485 8.28106 5.441433 8.35488 5.405263 8.35013 5.352523 8.31754 5.276430 8.29273 5.222210 8.25599 5.188074 8.17746 5.171815 8.12799 5.168167 8.029 5.161190 7.97259 5.125796 7.92599 5.091133 7.92512 5.101603 " " 8.50075 5.730902 8.57813 5.758357 8.66573 5.786859 8.72458 5.802343 8.80237 5.830267 8.8501 5.855422 8.91798 5.882644 8.98594 5.910089 8.98968 5.962931 9.03614 5.998824 9.06117 6.043353 9.06454 6.096256 9.08943 6.140657 9.09285 6.193433 9.06424 6.253699 9.07737 6.307527 9.0689 6.369601 9.07029 6.432799 9.08024 6.506974 9.09841 6.592893 9.15319 6.567121 9.21065 6.594240 9.25493 6.640830 9.30853 6.625580 9.36691 6.579510 9.39944 6.498731 9.44058 6.429513 9.46991 6.369563 9.48759 6.318643 9.54172 6.303607 9.59007 6.255960 9.64587 6.230489 9.68266 6.192260 9.70185 6.130824 9.66477 6.094852 9.63064 6.038233 9.58203 6.011722 9.53331 5.985410 9.50577 6.035448 9.50254 5.982217 9.51952 5.931072 9.46819 5.925805 9.44286 5.880850 9.45077 5.817944 " " 9.45077 5.817944 9.40343 5.781445 9.36627 5.746230 9.31757 5.720214 9.33413 5.668930 9.31218 5.592566 9.29789 5.538381 9.29361 5.485104 9.30989 5.433463 9.36362 5.417342 9.31686 5.370488 9.32279 5.317897 9.3753 5.312255 9.42112 5.273796 9.45665 5.234673 9.51879 5.240491 9.51288 5.293244 9.55786 5.265318 9.52112 5.219276 9.48304 5.183690 9.42919 5.200143 9.40274 5.155079 9.37611 5.110065 9.3409 5.149522 9.32567 5.094975 9.29926 5.050071 9.2499 5.024519 9.20067 4.998991 9.15148 4.973716 9.10234 4.948175 9.06552 4.902857 9.02761 4.867749 8.98987 4.832868 8.97435 4.778464 8.94753 4.733922 8.92075 4.689250 8.97263 4.682736 8.99787 4.631335 9.01265 4.579358 8.99692 4.524704 9.01167 4.472437 8.99561 4.417980 8.95728 4.383170 8.96154 4.330127 " " 8.96154 4.330127 8.94537 4.275556 8.92062 4.327049 8.86964 4.323557 8.82629 4.352296 8.78215 4.391975 8.77423 4.487103 8.76171 4.390408 8.80679 4.340383 8.84228 4.278931 8.88657 4.239344 8.92044 4.198895 8.95449 4.158270 8.93803 4.103688 8.94279 4.039666 8.94899 4.093632 8.92148 4.048867 8.91598 3.984297 8.90013 3.918657 8.88335 3.863914 8.87677 3.809694 8.85261 3.861920 8.85917 3.916097 8.86559 3.970249 8.84134 4.022105 8.80758 4.062832 8.7574 4.048662 8.71426 4.077982 8.72044 4.131850 8.69618 4.183460 8.70239 4.237327 8.66861 4.277599 8.69576 4.321920 8.69157 4.375029 8.67543 4.320542 8.63829 4.275431 8.64229 4.222558 8.6463 4.169426 8.66028 4.117112 8.70488 4.066734 8.72905 4.014788 8.67824 4.011342 8.60645 4.017556 8.55497 4.024899 " " 8.55497 4.024899 8.56137 4.078590 8.53557 4.013067 8.58536 4.026754 8.61885 3.986353 8.6704 3.978958 8.72192 3.971463 8.77448 3.953615 8.76793 3.899569 8.80227 3.847991 8.77589 3.781903 8.81895 3.752440 8.7685 3.738458 8.71609 3.756858 8.75905 3.727200 8.79325 3.675436 8.83124 3.720921 8.88247 3.723975 8.91595 3.683023 8.9406 3.619737 8.97404 3.578510 9.00888 3.515673 9.04239 3.474484 9.0759 3.433047 9.08947 3.379495 9.07187 3.324178 9.0687 3.378327 9.06563 3.432496 9.03154 3.484676 8.97671 3.535496 8.94205 3.598150 8.9186 3.640058 8.93231 3.586933 8.89345 3.552052 8.86581 3.496541 8.80514 3.482014 8.8671 3.474926 8.91778 3.488567 8.95179 3.436489 8.9794 3.492223 9.00326 3.439488 8.97612 3.372943 8.90678 3.325468 8.86333 3.366416 " " 8.86333 3.366416 8.8248 3.320875 8.88674 3.313657 8.88011 3.248001 8.82051 3.212262 8.9115 3.238977 8.95437 3.208725 8.92647 3.152820 8.95493 3.197731 8.99202 3.275944 8.97435 3.220589 8.92647 3.152820 8.86428 3.160271 8.82504 3.125521 8.76701 3.057481 8.71866 3.000704 8.71108 2.945881 8.69366 2.879607 8.63303 2.865744 8.59394 2.831179 8.54458 2.796435 8.51696 2.729753 8.50955 2.663858 8.4915 2.608452 8.45231 2.574178 8.42368 2.529204 8.39507 2.484321 8.3559 2.449888 8.32721 2.404915 8.28847 2.359745 8.24977 2.314462 8.23153 2.259002 8.20323 2.203111 8.19497 2.148139 8.17711 2.081489 8.17863 2.026583 8.17027 1.971293 8.18195 1.916484 8.1936 1.861879 8.22519 1.807464 8.24671 1.752869 8.2686 1.675728 8.30015 1.621173 8.34153 1.566706 " " 8.34153 1.566706 8.38297 1.511989 8.41427 1.456777 8.45532 1.424406 8.44635 1.356755 8.42527 1.412298 8.39415 1.456377 8.41532 1.400893 8.43663 1.334144 8.46755 1.289930 8.45664 1.345772 8.48762 1.301608 8.51855 1.257157 8.5496 1.212717 8.5706 1.145412 8.60146 1.100853 8.63228 1.056004 8.65289 .999479 8.65342 .942626 8.66402 .885724 8.65409 .828683 8.6645 .760230 8.65466 .702859 8.63472 .645252 8.63464 .587958 8.63477 .530400 8.58442 .472493 8.5442 .437738 8.5041 .402868 8.4439 .391109 8.3939 .367696 8.34402 .344485 8.3939 .367696 8.4439 .391109 8.49403 .402785 8.53412 .437624 8.57436 .472351 8.61466 .507223 8.63471 .564891 8.58451 .541515 8.52424 .529596 8.47382 .552095 8.46372 .609402 8.43352 .654583 " " 8.43352 .654583 8.39323 .699928 8.33295 .722050 8.3026 .766936 8.28226 .823630 8.23235 .822644 8.23183 .879475 8.22114 .935705 8.17137 .923584 8.13109 .956722 8.11036 1.012641 8.07987 1.056892 8.08906 1.113265 8.11821 1.170039 8.06765 1.202483 8.06874 1.146449 8.02825 1.179229 8.01705 1.246200 8.03615 1.302272 8.02508 1.357973 8.01388 1.413330 7.97231 1.490025 7.9226 1.488491 7.88149 1.542802 7.84077 1.585840 7.79058 1.606485 7.75955 1.649630 7.69911 1.680912 7.64037 1.657143 7.61185 1.612196 7.56321 1.577447 7.51493 1.532139 7.4562 1.519219 7.43504 1.573522 7.38483 1.604841 7.36372 1.659120 7.31491 1.646484 7.2654 1.655917 7.23455 1.698762 7.17651 1.674681 7.10854 1.650687 7.06009 1.626939 7.09824 1.661209 7.05002 1.637530 " " 7.05002 1.637530 7.00142 1.624942 6.95367 1.590432 6.89539 1.577436 6.94345 1.601069 6.91287 1.643719 6.89175 1.697541 6.87389 1.642243 6.83602 1.608134 6.78724 1.606427 6.73901 1.593740 6.68101 1.580597 6.63294 1.557078 6.58519 1.533512 6.53642 1.542561 6.476585 1.573042 6.448333 1.528337 6.479777 1.474955 6.52834 1.487779 6.58542 1.522592 6.54811 1.477375 6.58786 1.446206 6.61559 1.491000 6.66513 1.459824 6.63722 1.415145 6.58948 1.391583 6.61986 1.348699 6.66911 1.317628 6.72798 1.297753 6.71007 1.242252 6.65259 1.218163 6.68041 1.263191 6.63102 1.294258 6.5725 1.303288 6.54219 1.346037 6.493470 1.355091 6.53328 1.323694 6.53467 1.268968 6.496871 1.234503 6.465685 1.288380 6.416865 1.264616 6.388733 1.219681 6.328527 1.250510 6.269002 1.259159 " " 6.269002 1.259159 6.277182 1.314098 6.217680 1.322900 6.206110 1.377154 6.157036 1.364108 6.097956 1.361914 6.138451 1.330646 6.188163 1.321804 6.139131 1.308826 6.079802 1.317383 6.030663 1.315417 5.981079 1.324240 5.921347 1.343485 5.871552 1.363272 5.822772 1.350280 5.764150 1.336914 5.696400 1.311914 5.629191 1.265408 5.571302 1.240881 5.609305 1.275451 5.560229 1.273158 5.587709 1.329046 5.539392 1.304785 5.531579 1.249969 5.523919 1.194872 5.561877 1.229589 5.533961 1.184332 5.496420 1.139014 5.439308 1.092369 5.381822 1.056837 5.333810 1.032421 5.285440 1.019074 5.236569 1.016792 5.218985 .961015 5.169799 .969366 5.152387 .913640 5.093902 .910652 5.105639 .856015 5.057851 .831625 5.079381 .777492 5.043414 .698343 4.995079 .684813 5.035689 .642591 5.028118 .586794 " " 5.028118 .586794 5.040345 .520810 5.042323 .465205 5.073554 .411287 5.081295 .467278 5.059350 .532973 5.046753 .609931 5.053626 .687689 5.070391 .754960 5.107452 .812199 5.124687 .868205 5.172343 .903485 5.210052 .938462 5.247834 .973261 5.182124 .904144 5.144295 .869217 5.116731 .823517 5.089565 .767127 5.063301 .688270 5.046236 .620922 5.058825 .543980 5.090216 .489918 5.102270 .423850 5.094566 .367805 5.106348 .312653 5.057831 .309954 5.008228 .340808 4.959307 .349437 4.910885 .346646 4.861398 .366335 4.792181 .395830 4.722624 .436361 4.682414 .467437 4.669895 .533451 4.638804 .575938 4.626291 .641858 4.613373 .718696 4.562301 .770762 4.530757 .824243 4.499580 .866526 4.467949 .919789 4.436661 .961873 4.404947 1.014928 4.383122 1.068688 " " 4.383122 1.068688 4.361207 1.122182 4.339217 1.175665 4.288338 1.216311 4.256917 1.258315 4.215837 1.299511 4.166187 1.307302 4.117173 1.304344 4.057982 1.311689 3.999123 1.307847 3.961871 1.261674 3.944884 1.205966 3.908180 1.148644 3.871020 1.102295 3.820902 1.120829 3.779988 1.151047 3.729302 1.180806 3.678005 1.221161 3.637111 1.251465 3.596138 1.281621 3.573123 1.345815 3.570558 1.400434 3.548078 1.453659 3.525725 1.506882 3.484277 1.547921 3.443187 1.577914 3.411371 1.619502 3.358663 1.681336 3.316961 1.722299 3.275237 1.763119 3.243504 1.804498 3.211728 1.845942 2.891841 1.857747 2.877846 1.736786 2.716406 1.758635 2.301216 1.806668 1.588608 2.198892 1.617294 2.244684 1.128868 2.302616 1.115531 2.368126 1.123459 2.423740 1.099259 2.499606 1.066355 2.541923 1.021955 2.605448 " " 1.021955 2.605448 .998908 2.659249 .947277 2.645341 .924318 2.699290 .880806 2.741121 .816861 2.770748 .783887 2.813143 .750903 2.855645 .686655 2.885527 .611929 2.914902 .558547 2.934565 .545426 3.011229 .553892 3.077651 .531262 3.131433 .528933 3.208235 .496208 3.250751 .463016 3.304322 .440214 3.369225 .417869 3.423253 .395542 3.477342 .393855 3.553823 .445840 3.599012 .413388 3.641608 .370371 3.684084 .369255 3.749328 .368557 3.803881 .378368 3.858393 .410712 3.815869 .443005 3.773221 .431596 3.827230 .431015 3.881676 .430206 3.946738 .388535 3.891413 .345855 3.922985 .313694 3.965450 .302187 4.073893 .269861 4.159976 .237973 4.213572 .248364 4.289553 .269396 4.354673 .280065 4.408851 .280225 4.484405 .238256 4.559258 .249241 4.635025 " " .249241 4.635025 .291936 4.689218 .334680 4.764850 .356182 4.818884 .367274 4.872354 .389516 4.968956 .369385 5.022360 .380657 5.075778 .402584 5.129381 .393099 5.182774 .425546 5.236337 .457971 5.289673 .490089 5.332298 .522247 5.374948 .564823 5.417696 .576530 5.470975 .598491 5.524124 .620832 5.587738 .643297 5.651324 .675347 5.693635 .697474 5.746538 .709352 5.799552 .731720 5.852407 .753812 5.905112 .776532 5.968475 .816172 5.936955 .866458 5.916045 .837696 5.968517 .787141 5.979120 .789284 6.042170 .831622 6.084564 .802679 6.126542 .805654 6.200261 .807798 6.252835 .820197 6.305322 .813350 6.378897 .805546 6.431614 .828360 6.483984 .887883 6.462960 .926877 6.431245 .976303 6.410238 1.015297 6.378911 1.065166 6.368524 1.114092 6.337269 " " 1.114092 6.337269 1.102016 6.284930 1.109812 6.222005 1.097918 6.169402 1.047102 6.158637 1.097073 6.148322 1.119116 6.201097 1.141845 6.274523 1.123767 6.326761 1.115662 6.379286 1.144100 6.337383 1.172726 6.295554 1.174560 6.347979 1.156650 6.400417 1.168663 6.452826 1.170859 6.504988 1.163164 6.557463 1.241963 6.536737 1.359991 6.506119 1.477447 6.465394 1.585172 6.435050 1.702394 6.405273 1.819531 6.375738 1.936463 6.346467 2.004498 6.326950 2.101455 6.297607 2.169586 6.288713 2.295548 6.260397 2.402061 6.242221 2.450363 6.232976 2.508256 6.224077 2.633710 6.196308 2.739757 6.178817 2.845493 6.161079 2.960776 6.154349 3.047245 6.136444 3.191011 6.120505 3.305865 6.103933 3.420533 6.097493 3.544679 6.081410 3.659184 6.075542 3.773573 6.059310 3.887810 6.053414 4.002052 6.047863 " " 4.002052 6.047863 4.116005 6.042171 4.229742 6.047029 4.324836 6.040779 4.448133 6.035874 4.561732 6.040899 4.666265 6.035175 4.789089 6.040746 4.902599 6.046018 5.007181 6.040780 5.120135 6.056315 5.224868 6.051240 5.221888 6.102418 5.267992 6.125504 5.289829 6.075053 5.302952 6.013846 5.352736 5.975152 5.400834 5.967193 5.459044 5.949501 5.524258 5.973328 5.582046 5.965911 5.631615 5.937530 5.679806 5.929916 5.738407 5.912324 5.778511 5.883541 5.835848 5.886487 5.890945 5.920184 5.940122 5.902201 5.987898 5.904737 6.046092 5.897780 6.074755 5.899228 " " 8.98356 4.789795 8.9568 4.745235 9.00881 4.738700 9.05801 4.763885 9.10718 4.789026 9.15442 4.835622 9.11649 4.800518 9.05801 4.763885 9.00881 4.738700 9.04683 4.773656 9.10631 4.799661 9.14426 4.834734 9.19353 4.860096 9.23068 4.905702 9.26854 4.941029 9.21821 4.926100 9.18024 4.890929 9.1957 4.945339 9.16901 4.900583 9.1197 4.875260 9.07052 4.849952 9.02138 4.824897 8.98356 4.789795 " " -------------- next part -------------- 3.619953 3.806815 8.952574 4.655355 " " 3.619953 3.806815 6.533918 4.420413 " " 3.610795 4.023126 3.584923 3.876050 " " 3.584923 3.876050 2.341622 2.059235 " " 3.584923 3.876050 .516004 3.838207 " " 3.584923 3.876050 .480483 3.771352 " " 3.584923 3.876050 8.551032 4.166185 " " 3.520705 3.979665 9.308908 5.323458 " " 3.319830 2.850834 3.241337 2.677395 " " 3.543516 6.915911 2.439003 4.187191 " " 3.194815 2.435991 3.241337 2.677395 " " 2.648378 7.487445 1.043809 6.662515 " " 1.152150 2.396096 1.137680 2.424917 " " 1.152150 2.396096 .968430 2.771202 " " 1.152150 2.396096 9.071629 4.930427 " " 1.137680 2.424917 .968430 2.771202 " " .968430 2.771202 .480483 3.771352 " " .545429 3.727094 .527687 3.732130 " " .545429 3.727094 .521943 3.862181 " " .527687 3.732130 .480483 3.771352 " " .527687 3.732130 .853627 5.740145 " " .527687 3.732130 .838099 5.744786 " " .516004 3.838207 .527687 3.732130 " " .516004 3.838207 .480483 3.771352 " " .480483 3.771352 .545429 3.727094 " " .480483 3.771352 .527687 3.732130 " " .480483 3.771352 .492241 3.742264 " " .480483 3.771352 .516004 3.838207 " " .504348 3.867248 .466178 3.865466 " " 1.087654 6.211160 1.068134 6.216811 " " 1.093624 6.235148 1.068134 6.216811 " " 1.111538 6.307132 1.087654 6.211160 " " 1.111538 6.307132 1.068134 6.216811 " " .477622 3.797883 .527687 3.732130 " " .477622 3.797883 .480483 3.771352 " " .890590 5.734321 .869169 5.735522 " " .856950 5.687776 .869169 5.735522 " " .869169 5.735522 .521943 3.862181 " " .869169 5.735522 .504348 3.867248 " " .869169 5.735522 .838099 5.744786 " " 1.101945 6.645101 1.043809 6.662515 " " 1.043809 6.662515 1.068134 6.216811 " " .729157 5.520570 .516004 3.838207 " " 9.308908 5.323458 .968430 2.771202 " " 9.308908 5.323458 .480483 3.771352 " " 9.308908 5.323458 9.314281 5.307144 " " 9.308908 5.323458 9.290612 5.324353 " " 9.308908 5.323458 9.204741 5.422926 " " 9.308908 5.323458 8.521540 4.208821 " " 9.298264 5.301036 9.308908 5.323458 " " 9.275309 5.370989 9.204741 5.422926 " " 9.238370 5.461854 9.212316 5.399579 " " 9.305537 5.251344 9.308908 5.323458 " " 9.266997 5.341608 9.259371 5.364934 " " 9.266997 5.341608 9.219891 5.376232 " " 9.302704 5.176863 9.343735 5.134723 " " 9.302704 5.176863 9.305537 5.251344 " " 9.302704 5.176863 9.093962 4.964397 " " 9.235042 5.329537 9.308908 5.323458 " " 9.204741 5.422926 .987213 2.766730 " " 9.204741 5.422926 .480483 3.771352 " " 9.204741 5.422926 .504348 3.867248 " " 9.204741 5.422926 1.087654 6.211160 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.300241 5.511811 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.219891 5.376232 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.212316 5.399579 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.226607 5.300178 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.093962 4.964397 " " 9.204741 5.422926 9.071629 4.930427 " " 9.204741 5.422926 8.868345 4.756657 " " 9.204741 5.422926 8.404176 3.379286 " " 9.204741 5.422926 7.887311 5.206456 " " 9.226607 5.300178 9.308908 5.323458 " " 9.226607 5.300178 9.274623 5.318281 " " 9.226607 5.300178 9.266997 5.341608 " " 9.100701 5.089317 2.439003 4.187191 " " 9.071629 4.930427 .545429 3.727094 " " 9.071629 4.930427 9.212316 5.399579 " " 9.071629 4.930427 9.064462 4.953928 " " 9.071629 4.930427 8.470063 3.346065 " " 9.051629 4.936382 9.071629 4.930427 " " 9.067236 4.824761 9.060119 4.848288 " " 8.694468 5.916955 8.956528 4.890287 " " 8.956528 4.890287 1.137680 2.424917 " " 8.956528 4.890287 8.951324 4.784665 " " 8.951324 4.784665 3.319830 2.850834 " " 8.951324 4.784665 8.956528 4.890287 " " 8.951324 4.784665 8.868345 4.756657 " " 8.952574 4.655355 8.986008 4.666710 " " 8.952574 4.655355 8.925034 4.749792 " " 8.952574 4.655355 8.881959 4.709391 " " 8.952574 4.655355 8.868345 4.756657 " " 8.952574 4.655355 6.533918 4.420413 " " 8.952574 4.655355 6.482959 4.412758 " " 8.925034 4.749792 9.308908 5.323458 " " 8.925034 4.749792 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.925034 4.749792 8.908416 4.744184 " " 8.925034 4.749792 8.881959 4.709391 " " 8.925034 4.749792 8.868345 4.756657 " " 8.925034 4.749792 8.868887 4.627343 " " 8.881959 4.709391 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.868345 4.756657 2.439003 4.187191 " " 8.868345 4.756657 9.067236 4.824761 " " 8.868345 4.756657 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.868345 4.756657 8.551032 4.166185 " " 8.868887 4.627343 8.845405 4.645468 " " 8.818007 4.514906 8.551032 4.166185 " " 8.818007 4.514906 7.514433 2.593533 " " 8.747774 4.536177 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.747774 4.536177 8.818007 4.514906 " " 8.715030 4.654790 8.925034 4.749792 " " 8.544854 5.271225 8.404176 3.379286 " " 8.434377 5.030566 1.068134 6.216811 " " 8.434377 5.030566 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.585528 4.176518 8.516504 4.155937 " " 8.551032 4.166185 6.278713 4.725504 " " 8.544893 4.190065 8.731568 4.427753 " " 8.544893 4.190065 8.379215 3.321138 " " 8.516504 4.155937 8.551032 4.166185 " " 8.238958 5.177292 8.206656 5.167837 " " 8.206656 5.167837 8.551032 4.166185 " " 8.206656 5.167837 8.245008 5.153431 " " 8.470063 3.346065 8.360860 3.880301 " " 8.470063 3.346065 8.433739 3.336024 " " 8.433739 3.336024 8.470063 3.346065 " " 8.433739 3.336024 8.379215 3.321138 " " 8.433739 3.336024 8.100501 3.095063 " " 8.404176 3.379286 8.433739 3.336024 " " 8.404176 3.379286 8.379215 3.321138 " " 8.404176 3.379286 8.334976 1.431849 " " 8.307951 3.378932 8.952574 4.655355 " " 8.307951 3.378932 8.925034 4.749792 " " 8.307951 3.378932 7.514433 2.593533 " " 8.307951 3.378932 6.482959 4.412758 " " 8.307951 3.378932 5.502060 3.609040 " " 7.887311 5.206456 7.720206 5.112197 " " 7.966059 4.394570 8.433739 3.336024 " " 8.626170 .945343 8.334976 1.431849 " " 8.334976 1.431849 8.087687 1.664854 " " 7.627951 4.577392 9.204741 5.422926 " " 7.475740 4.155812 8.952574 4.655355 " " 7.475740 4.155812 8.925034 4.749792 " " 7.358524 4.731006 7.309274 4.763224 " " 7.309274 4.763224 7.244139 4.693966 " " 7.309274 4.763224 7.514433 2.593533 " " 7.280213 4.064082 6.783412 4.135181 " " 7.514433 2.593533 8.470063 3.346065 " " 7.251787 3.894594 7.280213 4.064082 " " 6.936560 4.003683 6.783412 4.135181 " " 6.936560 4.003683 6.533918 4.420413 " " 6.936560 4.003683 6.472186 4.361235 " " 6.896302 3.853611 6.783412 4.135181 " " 6.783412 4.135181 6.567927 4.025799 " " 6.608008 4.474391 7.514433 2.593533 " " 6.608008 4.474391 6.593324 4.429585 " " 6.593324 4.429585 8.845405 4.645468 " " 6.593324 4.429585 6.580097 4.527484 " " 6.593324 4.429585 6.482959 4.412758 " " 6.537933 4.520945 6.547652 4.447491 " " 6.533918 4.420413 6.547652 4.447491 " " 6.533918 4.420413 5.613284 5.007120 " " 6.513745 4.442332 6.482959 4.412758 " " 6.562074 4.029917 6.567927 4.025799 " " 6.482959 4.412758 6.205330 3.602037 " " 6.472186 4.361235 6.608008 4.474391 " " 6.472186 4.361235 6.593324 4.429585 " " 5.613284 5.007120 5.596527 5.122371 " " 5.502060 3.609040 6.205330 3.602037 " " 5.144769 2.092780 6.567927 4.025799 " " 5.142959 2.142861 5.144769 2.092780 " " 5.142959 2.142861 5.022821 2.050523 " " -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 07:37:29 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:37:29 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following articles: Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 - https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 - https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From beebe at math.utah.edu Wed Jul 10 07:37:18 2019 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:37:18 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] IEEE Computing Edge and Unix history Message-ID: Postal mail today brought me the latest issue of the IEEE Computing Edge magazine, which presents short articles from other recent IEEE publications. In it, there is an article with numerous mentions of Doug McIlroy, early Unix, software tools, and software modularization: Gerard J. Holzmann Software Components IEEE Computing Edge 5(7) (July 2019) 38--40 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8354432 [republished from IEEE Software 35(3) (May/June 2018) 80--82] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe at acm.org beebe at computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 07:46:35 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:46:35 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 > - > > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 > - > > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files output. -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 08:01:20 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:01:20 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> Thank you, Grant! I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will add images from Henry as well.     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 2:37 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >  - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >  - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 08:02:35 2019 From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:02:35 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS > wrote: > >> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. >> >> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following >> articles: >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >> - >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >> - >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >> >> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow > in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break > my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files > output. > > -Henry > > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to. -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 08:44:52 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:44:52 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Thank you, Grant! You're welcome. > I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will > add images from Henry as well. I'm doing some digging on this. I'm curious to learn how the data gets used. My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from. }:-) I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help with this. :-D I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it to pseudo #L lines that can be used. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 09:14:33 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:14:33 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net> Well, my intent is to print a packet of Usenet maps to hand out at Wednesday night's 50th UNIX Anniversary event in Seattle. I have 15 copies and a link to the PDF file on stargatemuseum.org. If possible, I'd like to add 1 or 2 or 3 of these graphical maps to the packet. It would also be helpful to have an archived copy of the full UUCP map.  Stan Barber sent me one some time ago but I misplaced it, and it's not coming to his fingertips either. That would obviously be a project for later, not a paper handout, but to save on the museum web site. However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :) Thanks,     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 3:44 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Thank you, Grant! > > You're welcome. > >> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will >> add images from Henry as well. > > I'm doing some digging on this.  I'm curious to learn how the data > gets used.  My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data > from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if > it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from.  }:-) > > I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help > with this.  :-D > > I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it > will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it > to pseudo #L lines that can be used.  }:-) > > > From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 09:23:01 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:23:01 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :) The extra icons in the legend are nice! Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data... Thanks,     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent > wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS > > wrote: > > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks > smaller, but > > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the > following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >   - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >   - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  > Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I > managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to > get the next set of files output. > > -Henry > > > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG > form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the > gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing > > I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, > cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector > format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you > wanted to. > > -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 10:06:13 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:06:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Message-ID: Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, are you in Renton right now? On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. > > I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date > in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :) > > The extra icons in the legend are nice! > > Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid > doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had > such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I > know where he got his data... > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent wrote: > >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS >> wrote: >> >>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. >>> >>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following >>> articles: >>> >>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >>> - >>> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >>> >>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >>> - >>> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >>> >>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Grant. . . . >>> unix || die >>> >>> >> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow >> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break >> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files >> output. >> >> -Henry >> >> > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form. > The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script, > seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing > > I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered > as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, > is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to. > > -Henry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 10:24:57 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:24:57 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet > map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :) Why do you say that? Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the map data that I'm looking at from '98. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 10 10:26:29 2019 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:26:29 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, architecture, etc. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4008 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 10:28:52 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:28:52 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <5d09495c-7f36-e20e-965d-b05a2105df85@mhorton.net> Hi, Dan, My plane gets into SeaTac at 11 AM Wed. I'm still at home and can still print these tonight. Thanks,     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 5:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, > are you in Renton right now? > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail > wrote: > > Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. > > I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that > the date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :) > > The extra icons in the legend are nice! > > Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall > Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at > one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week > but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data... > > Thanks, > >     Mary Ann > > On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent > > wrote: >> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS >> > wrote: >> >> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It >> looks smaller, but >> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow >> better. >> >> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found >> the following >> articles: >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >>   - >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >>   - >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >> >> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> >> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working >> away.  Somehow in going back over what I used to build a >> working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm >> trying to fix that to get the next set of files output. >> >> -Henry >> >> >> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and >> SVG form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with >> the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few >> graphical icons. >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing >> >> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, >> cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a >> vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster >> size if you wanted to. >> >> -Henry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 10:38:05 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:38:05 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, > architecture, etc. > Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it. - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Jul 10 10:49:16 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:49:16 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:38:05PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS > wrote: > > > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. > > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, > > architecture, etc. > > > > Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an > executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it. Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it worked. It's cool when it does though, reminds me of bringing up X11 back in the day. From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 10 10:57:19 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:57:19 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:49 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it > worked. I'd modify that to say, that old programs often ask less of *the system* - although they tend to have assumptions about the environment (like the target processor) embedded/implied in the code. I think the single enhancement to C was adding strong typing and explicit typing in the function calls. By adding those two things to old code, I have brought them forward. Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got pseudo C to compile back on V0. > It's cool when it does though, Indeed - very cool. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krewat at kilonet.net Wed Jul 10 11:02:50 2019 From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:02:50 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net> On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > reminds me of bringing up X11 > back in the day. Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee.... From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 10 11:13:45 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:13:45 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net> <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <0d3eb314-2d29-64a0-cfea-5468cc6d497a@mhorton.net> On 7/9/19 5:24 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a >> Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece >> of paper :) > > Why do you say that? > > Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the > map data that I'm looking at from '98. > Well, there are 320 node names in the 3/83 graphic, and it's already bordering on illegible.  7 times as many, especially with the concentrations in NJ, Chicago, Boston, etc, it would have to be pretty creative.  The Shannon map of 7/84 had over 900 hosts (just on Usenet, not including UUCP only) and they divided it into 9 sections. I suspect there were a lot more than 2100 UUCP hosts at its peak. I haven't had much luck doing searches on Google Groups - it often just gives me the first page and refuses to sort by date. Is there a good way to mine all the postings to a particular newsgroup, or all of them in a particular year?     Mary Ann From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Jul 10 11:19:36 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:19:36 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net> References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net> Message-ID: <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:02:50PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > >reminds me of bringing up X11 > >back in the day. > Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee.... Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a long shot. From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Jul 10 11:26:46 2019 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:26:46 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the > preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition > without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got > pseudo C to compile back on V0. Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0 system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back. Cheers, Warren From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 10 11:29:48 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:29:48 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler In-Reply-To: <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Thanks Robert, sorry for the error ;-) On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Warren Toomey wrote: > On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the > > preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition > > without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got > > pseudo C to compile back on V0. > > Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0 > system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back. > > Cheers, Warren > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 10 11:32:31 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Wed Jul 10 11:34:14 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:34:14 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com> References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net> <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Larry McVoy wrote: > Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, > um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code > that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me > later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system > that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a > long shot. Back in the 80s, our idiot of a manager just dumped an Xterm on us, expecting us to get it to work ASAP for a demo.. Oh the fun we had, seeing as our knowledge of "X" at the time was confined to knowing how to spell it... I even told him that, and he wasn't amused :-) -- Dave From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 12:51:15 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:51:15 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of > the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and > found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 -- Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 13:00:52 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:00:52 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:51 PM Charles Anthony wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version >> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and >> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. >> > > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 > > I found it at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/ -- Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 10 13:01:09 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:01:09 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net> <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net> <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com> <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Cool many thanks. FYI: it's a great start. It just the Terminal Control System part, there was about 5 or 6 subsystems, IIRC. That's a fairly early version (1974) also, since its Fortran-IV. Later versions in the late 70's/early 80s were in MORTRAN, BTW. I remember an internal argument of the folks in the terminal group about if Plot 10's GKS system should be done in C - but FORTRAN still rules the day so, MORTRAN was the compromise. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 10:51 PM Charles Anthony wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version >> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and >> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. >> > > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 > > -- Charles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 10 14:03:42 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 22:03:42 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix Message-ID: In honor of the Unix 50 party tomorrow, I wrote an analysis of the available data to conclude the first PDP-7 that Ken and Dennis used to bring up Unix on was serial number 34. I've not seen this result elsewhere, but if it's common place, please let me know. https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html One surprise from the analysis: there was only one pdp-7 in the world that could have run the original v0 unix. It's the only one that had the RB09 hard drive (though the asset list referenced in the article listed a RC09 on that system). I hope you enjoy Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jul 10 15:14:59 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:14:59 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix In-Reply-To: (Warner Losh's message of "Tue, 9 Jul 2019 22:03:42 -0600") References: Message-ID: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Warner Losh wrote: > I hope you enjoy I enjoyed it very much. Thanks! From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jul 10 15:34:49 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:34:49 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix In-Reply-To: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:14:59 +0000") References: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> I see PDP-7 #34 also had these options: 340 Precision incremental CRT display 342 Symbol generator for 340 display, first 64 characters 370 High speed light pen Was this the display used for Space Travel? These hardware devices are all supported by Phil Budne's 340 simulation in SIMH, so if the software was to be found it could probably be run. From arnold at skeeve.com Wed Jul 10 15:44:47 2019 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 23:44:47 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] UREP In-Reply-To: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca> References: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org> Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Back in the day I had the pleasure of firing up what was possibly > the last North American BITNET node (certainly the last one on > NetNorth), on a Sun 3/xxx deskside server running SunOS 3.5(+). > (AUCS, at Athabasca U.) > > I'm curious to know if the UREP source code that drove that link > ever escaped. I recall it being licensed code at the time, but > from academia vs. a commercial product. I don't know if that also > applied to the bisync serial driver. > > --lyndon You don't want to see the source code. We ran it at Emory, and I remember that I had to work with it, and after every dive into the code, I felt like I needed a shower afterwards. I don't remember the details, only the strong associated emotions. :-( Arnold From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 10 16:05:16 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:05:16 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix In-Reply-To: <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 11:34 PM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > I see PDP-7 #34 also had these options: > > 340 Precision incremental CRT display > 342 Symbol generator for 340 display, first 64 characters > 370 High speed light pen > > Was this the display used for Space Travel? That's my belief given how the story was told in the history. But the histories I've read weren't specific as to whether the stock display was used or the custom one was. These hardware devices are all supported by Phil Budne's 340 simulation > in SIMH, so if the software was to be found it could probably be run. > That's true. The simh machine emulates both, so it wouldn't matter. And we'd be able to know which one was used... I've not seen the code for this, though... Warner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beebe at math.utah.edu Wed Jul 10 22:51:04 2019 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:51:04 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Clem Cole asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400: >> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find these files: % ls -log total 3768 -rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver -rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for % wc -l * 1815 agii.for 7251 ezgr27.for 26011 igl.for 3577 p4663.for 1596 p4663.ver 1845 ploter.for 2763 plt10.for 27 plt10t.for 44885 total % head -16 agii.for C***********************************************************************00000010 C* *00000020 C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030 C* LEVEL 1 *00000040 C* *00000050 C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060 C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070 C* *00000080 C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090 C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100 C* *00000110 C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120 C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130 C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140 C* *00000150 C***********************************************************************00000160 The Bitsavers code at http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer. The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing it to the public? I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10 code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe at acm.org beebe at computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 11 00:34:26 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:34:26 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FE9B972-531A-461D-B1F8-727CF1B0C277@ccc.com> Nelson. Good question. The status is unknown last I knew. I’ve personally lost track of anyone at Tek that might have able to help. Also your version seems to be pure FORTRAN-IV not the mortran sources. Part of my question is I’m not sure if they shipped the pre or post processed version. Somebody like Ed Post (of the old “Real Programmers don’t write Pascal, they use FORTRAN”) might remember. Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > On Jul 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > Clem Cole asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400: > >>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? > > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later > science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find > these files: > > % ls -log > total 3768 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver > -rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for > > % wc -l * > 1815 agii.for > 7251 ezgr27.for > 26011 igl.for > 3577 p4663.for > 1596 p4663.ver > 1845 ploter.for > 2763 plt10.for > 27 plt10t.for > 44885 total > > % head -16 agii.for > C***********************************************************************00000010 > C* *00000020 > C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030 > C* LEVEL 1 *00000040 > C* *00000050 > C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060 > C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070 > C* *00000080 > C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090 > C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100 > C* *00000110 > C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120 > C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130 > C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140 > C* *00000150 > C***********************************************************************00000160 > > The Bitsavers code at > > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn > > has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer. > > The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has > Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing > it to the public? > > I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10 > code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - > - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - > - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu - > - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe at acm.org beebe at computer.org - > - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 11 02:38:35 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Message-ID: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find > these files: Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding them! Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so good to see historical software being saved. Noel From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 11 03:05:26 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:05:26 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources In-Reply-To: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: +1 Thank you On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:39 PM Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" > > > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find > > these files: > > Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding > them! > > Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so > good to > see historical software being saved. > > Noel > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athornton at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 05:31:59 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:31:59 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] UREP In-Reply-To: <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org> References: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca> <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org> Message-ID: I have sort-of resurrected the bitnet zone file. SInce bitnet is not an official TLD you will need to specify the nameserver, since the root won’t forward it. So, grab a copy with: dig IN AXFR bitnet @ns.fsf.net Note that the old zone file had underscores in the hostnames. Anywhere you see a dash here, it should be an underscore to be the correct bitnet name. bit.net is still alive (from the IP address it’s still a machine at Princeton) serving a document explaining the bitnet history. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de Thu Jul 11 19:00:25 2019 From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:00:25 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90b52a4cbf841f64fab0f7cafd4d3640@firemail.de> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Von: Warner Losh Datum: 10.07.2019 06:03:42 An: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Betreff: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix > In honor of the Unix 50 party tomorrow, I wrote an analysis of the > available data to conclude the first PDP-7 that Ken and Dennis used to > bring up Unix on was serial number 34. I've not seen this result elsewhere, > > but if it's common place, please let me know. > > https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html > > One surprise from the analysis: there was only one pdp-7 in the world that > > could have run the original v0 unix. It's the only one that had the RB09 > > hard drive (though the asset list referenced in the article listed a RC09 > > on that system). > > I hope you enjoy > > Warner > From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Fri Jul 12 00:53:02 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:53:02 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 Message-ID: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC… Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing through some strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to have been some platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure its stable enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnold at skeeve.com Fri Jul 12 01:12:01 2019 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:12:01 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: <201907111512.x6BFC1JE013584@freefriends.org> Jason Stevens wrote: > Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? > > While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that > everything was built with GCC… Was there a PCC for the i386 around > ’88-90? It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris HCX-9 > that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? I'm pretty sure that from Tahoe on UCB just used GCC. The PCC based compiler for i386 was available on System V ports, but by then UCB wasn't using code from AT&T. You can get a modernized PCC from http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ (CVS) or my git mirror at https://github.com/arnoldrobbins/pcc-revived. HTH, Arnold From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 12 01:37:21 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:37:21 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work. Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens wrote: > > Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? > > While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC… > Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris > HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? > > Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing through some > strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from > Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to have been some > platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say > building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure > its stable enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Fri Jul 12 01:50:29 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:50:29 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> Message-ID: That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" wrote: I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.   Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.  On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens wrote: Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?   While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC… Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?   Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure its stable enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 12 02:30:44 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:30:44 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> Message-ID: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the Ritchie and Johnson compilers at UCB had begun. Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs and gcc. CSRG wanted the different backends for C. ThAts it. Besides the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done before rms did his. He was compatible with the summit assembler. I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. Clem Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens wrote: > > That would make sense. I was able to find some info on PCC2 here > > http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ > > I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? > > Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" wrote: > >> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work. >> >> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. >> >>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >>> >>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC… >>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris >>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? >>> >>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing through some >>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from >>> Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to have been some >>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say >>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure >>> its stable enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich.salz at gmail.com Fri Jul 12 02:42:04 2019 From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:42:04 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: > I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been > further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the > labs? > > John Gilmore, with CSRG help and "blessing" led a major effort to get GCC to build all of BSD. As I recall, he found bugs in GCC and undefined features being used in CSRG source. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jul 12 02:48:16 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:48:16 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole wrote: > By the time of 4.2 the switch from the Ritchie and Johnson compilers at > UCB had begun. Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs > and gcc. > > CSRG wanted the different backends for C. ThAts it. Besides the vax, > Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. > > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive > Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an > Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually > released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract > summit supplied the compiler > > I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done > before rms did his. He was compatible with the summit assembler. I don’t > remember who’s 386 backend came out first. I think is was the summit > compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. > There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at all). Warner > Clem > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not > quite. > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens > wrote: > > That would make sense. I was able to find some info on PCC2 here > > http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ > > I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been > further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the > labs? > > Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the > era. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" wrote: > > I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the >> PCC2 work. >> >> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not >> quite. >> >> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens < >> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >> >> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >> >> >> >> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that >> everything was built with GCC… >> >> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid >> demise of the Tahoe/Harris >> >> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? >> >> >> >> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing >> through some >> >> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some >> bits from >> >> Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to >> have been some >> >> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead >> of say >> >> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make >> sure >> >> its stable enough. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com Fri Jul 12 02:50:27 2019 From: a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:50:27 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 12 02:54:51 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:54:51 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:50 PM A. P. Garcia wrote: > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive > Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an > Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually > released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract > summit supplied the compiler > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? No... > I seem to recall something > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... Much later in time... that was post SVR3 and SVR4 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 12 03:05:31 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:05:31 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU computer work. John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the UNIX50 party last night). tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks used. I don't remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty sure that the Intel assembler and some of the tools other John had brought back from his summers in MH. I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at AT&T first. IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus. I do know Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie Compiler at some point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can not seem to find it, in my archives). When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was updated for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was done, I'm not sure. Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the team in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they tried to centralize the compiler work for UNIX. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole wrote: > >> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the Ritchie and Johnson compilers at >> UCB had begun. Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs >> and gcc. >> >> CSRG wanted the different backends for C. ThAts it. Besides the vax, >> Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. >> >> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive >> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an >> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually >> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract >> summit supplied the compiler >> >> I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done >> before rms did his. He was compatible with the summit assembler. I don’t >> remember who’s 386 backend came out first. I think is was the summit >> compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. >> > > There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for > 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I > gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking > for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting > at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about > the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started > with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, > but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on > your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration > sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for > Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at > all). > > Warner > > >> Clem >> >> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not >> quite. >> >> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens < >> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >> >> That would make sense. I was able to find some info on PCC2 here >> >> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ >> >> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been >> further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the >> labs? >> >> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the >> era. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" >> wrote: >> >> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the >>> PCC2 work. >>> >>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not >>> quite. >>> >>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens < >>> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >>> >>> >>> >>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that >>> everything was built with GCC… >>> >>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid >>> demise of the Tahoe/Harris >>> >>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? >>> >>> >>> >>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing >>> through some >>> >>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some >>> bits from >>> >>> Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to >>> have been some >>> >>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead >>> of say >>> >>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make >>> sure >>> >>> its stable enough. >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauer at technologists.com Fri Jul 12 05:39:48 2019 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:39:48 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: Dell SVR4 included both pcc & gcc. gcc was used to build the system. I think Richard Wirt's group at Intel contributed to optimization for 486, IIRC, probably for gcc, possibly for pcc. I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure. Charlie On 7/11/2019 12:05 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU > computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve > Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the > UNIX50 party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks > used.  I don't remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty > sure that the Intel assembler and some of the tools other John had > brought back from his summers in MH. > > I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at > AT&T first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I > do know Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie > Compiler at some point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can > not seem to find it, in my archives). > > When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was > updated for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was > done, I'm not sure. > > Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the > team in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they > tried to centralize the compiler work for UNIX. > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole > wrote: > > By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson > compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms > at that point was emacs and gcc. > > CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides > the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. > > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid > Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code > to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA > bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 > port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the > compiler > > I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel > was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit > assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. > I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v > license which UCB did not have. > > > There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code > generation for 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College > London (I think, I gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. > I've run into this looking for a compiler for the Venix source > restoration project I've been tilting at. I found those based on a > cryptic comment I found somewhere online about the tech behind Venix > that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started with them as a > base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, but they > claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on your > quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration > sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once > one for Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate > sensible code at all). > > Warner > > Clem > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost > but not quite. > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens > > wrote: > >> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here >> >> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ >> >> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must >> have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't >> available outside of the labs? >> >> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c >> compilers of the era. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" >> > wrote: >> >> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at >> Summit with the PCC2 work. >> >> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be >> almost but not quite. >> >> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens >> > > wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it >>> seems that everything was built with GCC… >>> >>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems >>> after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris >>> >>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve >>> been tracing through some____ >>> >>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to >>> include some bits from____ >>> >>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine >>> there ought to have been some____ >>> >>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually >>> working instead of say____ >>> >>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few >>> hours to make sure____ >>> >>> its stable enough. >>> -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer From ron at ronnatalie.com Fri Jul 12 08:02:21 2019 From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:02:21 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) Message-ID: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Interactive Systems. Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a year. Heinz Lycklama went there. The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. They also had their own version of the Rand Editor called “INed” that was happiest on this hacked version of a Perkin Elmer terminal. Early versions were PWB UNIX based if I recall. My first job out of college was working with IS Unix on an 11/70 playing configuration management (essentially all the PWB stuff). I also hacked the line printer spooler and the .mm macro package to do classification markings (this was a part of a government contract). A few years later I was given the job of porting Interactive Systems UNIX that was already running on an i386 (an Intel 310 system which had a Multibus I) to an Intel Multibus II box. Intel had already ported it once, but nobody seemed to be able to find the source code. So with a fresh set of the source code for the old system from IS, I proceeded to reverse engineer/port the code to the Message Passing Coprocessor. (Intel was not real forthcoming for documentation for that either). Eventually, I got it to work (the Multibus II really was a pleasant bus and worked well with UNIX). I went on to write drivers for a 9-track tape drive (which sat in my living room for a long time), a Matrox multibus II framebuffer (OK, that had problems), and a SCSI host adapter that was talking to this kludge device that captured digital data from a FLIR on uMatic cassettes (but that’s a different story). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Fri Jul 12 08:31:01 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:31:01 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote: > Interactive Systems.   Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a > year.  Heinz Lycklama went there. A blast from the past indeed. > The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. Which model of the PDP-11? I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it) to the 11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities. And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it? Or was that purely a DEC product? -- Dave From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 12 10:14:41 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:14:41 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 3:40 PM Charles H Sauer wrote: > I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure. > I never knew it to be otherwise. We certainly started the AT&T tools and I don't think we changed anything on that front. AFAIK: AIX/370 was the same. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jul 12 12:52:19 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:52:19 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 4:31 PM Dave Horsfall wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote: > > > Interactive Systems. Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a > > year. Heinz Lycklama went there. > > A blast from the past indeed. > > > The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things > > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. > > Which model of the PDP-11? I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it) to the > 11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities. > > And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it? Or was that purely a DEC product? > Eunice came from Stanford and was sold by the Wollongong group, both as a standalone thing, or as the TCP/IP subset... I'm unsure if others licensed it or not (TGV did the TCP part, iirc, but enhanced it way more than TWG did). Warner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Jul 12 13:55:40 2019 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:55:40 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: >> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote: >> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options? Eunice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software) "phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS: https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?) From mparson at bl.org Fri Jul 12 13:44:25 2019 From: mparson at bl.org (Michael Parson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:44:25 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: <47139f945cc7604aeebe7a6e8276a29c@bl.org> On 2019-07-11 11:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > >> >> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid >> Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a >> 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This >> would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As >> part of the contract summit supplied the compiler >> > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... ISC was acquired by Eastman Kodak in 1988, who eventually sold Interactive Unix to Sun in 1991. -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX KF5LGQ From clemc at ccc.com Sat Jul 13 03:00:10 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:00:10 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: There were a number of them. As others have meantioned, the TGV folks did one, there were a number of tools from DECUS, and even DEC actually released more and more UNIX into VMS themselves. I used to carry a mag tape with vi, the shell and few basic tools that allowed me to edit things on VMS if I had to deal with it. The biggest issue was TCP/IP, since DECnet was the only networking for a such a long time from DEC. Stan Smith and I wrote the original VAX IP/TCP support for Tektronix in 1979, in BLISS and some small amount of VAX assembler. My friends (former coworkers) @ CMU took this back in and enhanced it (the CMU folks did a huge amount of work on the mail interface). IIRC I sent the tape to Danny Klein, but it might have been someone else. I have the code from the CMU's update of our work on 9-track tape, but I think it eventually also may have gone out on a DECUS tape. But I do know that this code base would make its way to DEC, where CJ and Wayne would take it to become the code base that started OpenVMS's version [CJ once told me he was impressed at how little they had to rewrite it, mostly removing some Vaxism's - Stan and I were not worried about portability, we just wanted something to talk correctly to the UNIX V7 TCP from 3COM (UNET) and the TCP we had written from the Cyber NOS]. Clem On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:56 PM Nigel Williams < nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote: > >> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. > > Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options? > > Eunice: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software) > > "phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS: > > https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y > > ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu Sat Jul 13 06:12:23 2019 From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:12:23 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by Joe Sventek at LBNL. Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, everything. Felt completely like Unix. Deborah On 7/12/19 10:00 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > There were a number of them. As others have meantioned, the TGV folks > did one, there were a number of tools from DECUS, and even DEC > actually released more and more UNIX into VMS themselves. I used to > carry a mag tape with vi, the shell and few basic tools that allowed > me to edit things on VMS if I had to deal with it. The biggest issue > was TCP/IP, since DECnet was the only networking for a such a long > time from DEC. > > Stan Smith and I wrote the original VAX IP/TCP support for Tektronix > in 1979, in BLISS and some small amount of VAX assembler. My friends > (former coworkers) @ CMU took this back in and enhanced it (the CMU > folks did a huge amount of work on the mail interface). IIRC I sent > the tape to Danny Klein, but it might have been someone else. > > I have the code from the CMU's update of our work on 9-track tape, but > I think it eventually also may have gone out on a DECUS tape. But I > do know that this code base would make its way to DEC, where CJ and > Wayne would take it to become the code base that started OpenVMS's > version [CJ once told me he was impressed at how little they had to > rewrite it, mostly removing some Vaxism's - Stan and I were not > worried about portability, we just wanted something to talk correctly > to the UNIX V7 TCP from 3COM (UNET) and the TCP we had written from > the Cyber NOS]. > > Clem > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:56 PM Nigel Williams > > > wrote: > > >> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com > wrote: > >> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product. > > Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options? > > Eunice: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software) > > > "phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS: > https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y > > ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.winalski at gmail.com Sat Jul 13 06:45:55 2019 From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:45:55 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer wrote: > There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by > Joe Sventek at LBNL. Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, > everything. Felt completely like Unix. How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes? I'm curious because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities. I wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe semantics. -Paul W. From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu Sat Jul 13 07:43:44 2019 From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:43:44 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu> I didn't do this port, so don't know the details. But it was done in the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution. When I collected various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS one. Sorry. Deborah On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote: > On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer wrote: >> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by >> Joe Sventek at LBNL. Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, >> everything. Felt completely like Unix. > How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes? I'm curious > because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell > that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities. I > wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS > pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe > semantics. > > -Paul W. From clemc at ccc.com Sat Jul 13 08:45:28 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:45:28 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu> References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file and then forked the next process after it got to eof. On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:44 PM Deborah Scherrer < dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote: > I didn't do this port, so don't know the details. But it was done in > the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution. When I collected > various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS one. Sorry. > Deborah > > On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote: > > On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer wrote: > >> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by > >> Joe Sventek at LBNL. Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, > >> everything. Felt completely like Unix. > > How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes? I'm curious > > because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell > > that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities. I > > wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS > > pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe > > semantics. > > > > -Paul W. > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu Sat Jul 13 09:18:52 2019 From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:18:52 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <36ef656e-a1ce-1eba-f330-aeba4103d6d9@solar.stanford.edu> I believe you are right. That was a typical implementation method. Deborah On 7/12/19 3:45 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file > and then forked the next process after it got to eof. > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:44 PM Deborah Scherrer > > > wrote: > > I didn't do this port, so don't know the details. But it was done in > the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution. When I collected > various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS > one. Sorry. > Deborah > > On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote: > > On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer > wrote: > >> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, > done by > >> Joe Sventek at LBNL. Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, > >> everything. Felt completely like Unix. > > How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes? I'm > curious > > because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell > > that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities. I > > wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS > > pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe > > semantics. > > > > -Paul W. > > -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu Sat Jul 13 09:23:43 2019 From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:23:43 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration Message-ID: Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary celebration in Seattle last Wednesday. It was wonderful to see old friends again. Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special people still doing wonderful work! Thanks, Clem, for the chance to meet up with them again! Deborah From dave at horsfall.org Sat Jul 13 10:24:18 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:24:18 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu> <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Clem Cole wrote: [ VMS "pipes" ] > If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file and > then forked the next process after it got to eof.     That's my recollection too. Trivia: I was speaking to Max at a DECUS conference, and he admitted that they had a Unix licence and were studying the code very carefully; not soon after, VMS became POSIX-compliant :-) -- Dave From dave at horsfall.org Sat Jul 13 10:36:28 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:36:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386) In-Reply-To: References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > Which model of the PDP-11?  I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it) > to the 11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities. > > And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it?  Or was that purely a DEC > product? > > Eunice came from Stanford and was sold by the Wollongong group, both as > a standalone thing, or as the TCP/IP subset... I'm unsure if others > licensed it or not (TGV did the TCP part, iirc, but enhanced it way more > than TWG did). Aha! Thanks for that background info. I still remember the conversation I had with my boss about running Eunice on their Vaxen: Me: "It makes VMS look civilised." He: "No, it makes it look like Unix." Me: "That's what I said!" Dunno what happened afterwards, because I was attracted to a commercial opportunity which paid much more and needed my Unix skills (otherwise I would've been supporting ancient COBOL programs). -- Dave From web at loomcom.com Sat Jul 13 11:52:11 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:52:11 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> Deborah Scherrer writes: > Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary > celebration in Seattle last Wednesday. It was wonderful to see old > friends again. Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing > their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special > people still doing wonderful work! Thanks, Clem, for the chance to > meet up with them again! I'd like to second this. I truly enjoyed myself at the event, even though I came in dead last place in the Unics Version 0 B programming contest :^) It was a great deal of fun to see so many working Unix systems on display, even if I did feel quite old seeing so many I worked with when they were new. > Deborah -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From crossd at gmail.com Sat Jul 13 14:49:10 2019 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 00:49:10 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?RIP_Fernando_Corbat=C3=B3?= Message-ID: Tom Van Vleck just passed this on the Multics mailing list. Fernando Corbató has passed away at 93. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/science/fernando-corbato-dead.html Clem organized the wonderful Unix 50 event at the LCM two days ago, where we saw a working 6180 front panel on display (backed by a virtual DPS-8m running Multics!). This is our heritage and our history, let us not forget where we came from. - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de Sat Jul 13 19:00:55 2019 From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 11:00:55 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?RIP_Fernando_Corbat=C3=B3?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <713b2fb41928faf5c4d29104464cd262@firemail.de> one of the most important computer scientists passed away - a tragedy. RIP Corby. --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Von: Dan Cross Datum: 13.07.2019 06:49:10 An: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , COFF , "Stephen M. Jones" Betreff: [TUHS] RIP Fernando Corbató > Tom Van Vleck just passed this on the Multics mailing list. Fernando > Corbató has passed away at 93. > > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/science/fernando-corbato-dead.html > > Clem organized the wonderful Unix 50 event at the LCM two days ago, where > > we saw a working 6180 front panel on display (backed by a virtual DPS-8m > > running Multics!). > > This is our heritage and our history, let us not forget where we came from. > > > - Dan C. > From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Sun Jul 14 03:46:27 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 01:46:27 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun) Message-ID: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Well I checked out Kirk’s site, and found out that he has a DVD to go along with the old 4 disc CD-ROM sets: In the 20 years since the release of the CSRG CD-ROM Set (1998-2018) I have continued collecting old software which I have put together in two historic collections. The first is various historic UNIX distributions not from Berkeley. The second is programs and other operating systems that shipped on or influenced BSD. The distribution is contained on a single DVD that contains all the original content from the original 4-CD-ROM distribution, these two collections of historic software, and a copy of John Baldwin's conversion of the SCCS database contained on the original disk4 to a Subversion repository. Unlike most write-once technology which remains readable for less than ten years, this DVD is written using M-Disc technology which should last for centuries. The price for the DVD is $149.00. I know the $150 USD may sound pricy but the historic2 archive does contain a couple additional copies of Mach! And a bunch of other stuff in there as well, it’s gigabytes of stuff to go through. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Sun Jul 14 03:53:18 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:53:18 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it. A party is about the people that come and enjoy each other. The truth is Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so. What a wonderful venue and super hosts. I truly hope folks on this list can support their efforts. They have a gem and as a community, we can thank them enough for keeping so much alive. Clem On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 6:53 PM Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Deborah Scherrer writes: > > > Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary > > celebration in Seattle last Wednesday. It was wonderful to see old > > friends again. Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing > > their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special > > people still doing wonderful work! Thanks, Clem, for the chance to > > meet up with them again! > > I'd like to second this. I truly enjoyed myself at the event, even > though I came in dead last place in the Unics Version 0 B programming > contest :^) > > It was a great deal of fun to see so many working Unix systems on > display, even if I did feel quite old seeing so many I worked with when > they were new. > > > Deborah > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA, USA > web at loomcom.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at kdbarto.org Sun Jul 14 03:48:44 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:48:44 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun) In-Reply-To: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: Where can one find an index of the DVD. I might spring for it. David > On Jul 13, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Jason Stevens wrote: > > Well I checked out Kirk’s site, and found out that he has a DVD to go along with the old 4 disc CD-ROM sets: > > In the 20 years since the release of the CSRG CD-ROM Set (1998-2018) I have continued collecting old software which I have put together in two historic collections. The first is various historic UNIX distributions not from Berkeley. The second is programs and other operating systems that shipped on or influenced BSD. The distribution is contained on a single DVD that contains all the original content from the original 4-CD-ROM distribution, these two collections of historic software, and a copy of John Baldwin's conversion of the SCCS database contained on the original disk4 to a Subversion repository. Unlike most write-once technology which remains readable for less than ten years, this DVD is written using M-Disc technology which should last for centuries. The price for the DVD is $149.00. > > I know the $150 USD may sound pricy but the historic2 archive does contain a couple additional copies of Mach! > > And a bunch of other stuff in there as well, it’s gigabytes of stuff to go through. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Sun Jul 14 07:48:51 2019 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 07:48:51 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun) In-Reply-To: References: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: <20190713214851.GA31649@minnie.tuhs.org> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:48:44AM -0700, David wrote: > Where can one find an index of the DVD. I might spring for it. https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/CSRG_CDs/ Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Sun Jul 14 10:21:11 2019 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:21:11 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: References: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote: > You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it. A party > is about the people that come and enjoy each other. The truth is > Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at > LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so. What a wonderful venue and > super hosts. I truly hope folks on this list can support their > efforts. They have a gem and as a community, we can thank them enough > for keeping so much alive. > Clem Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I could have been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the Usenix ATC, could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see! Thanks, Warren From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 14 10:22:42 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 18:22:42 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey wrote: > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote: > > You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it. A > party > > is about the people that come and enjoy each other. The truth is > > Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at > > LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so. What a wonderful venue and > > super hosts. I truly hope folks on this list can support their > > efforts. They have a gem and as a community, we can thank them enough > > for keeping so much alive. > > Clem > > Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I could > have > been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the Usenix > ATC, > could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see! > Yea. That would be great... Warner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 14 11:47:52 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:47:52 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Looking for email archives... Message-ID: ... of the pdp7 unix restoration activities. I could find the old unix72 ones at tuhs, but not the unix v0 archives. Can someone point me in the right direction? A google search or 4 has turned up nothing. Has it been archived somewhere? Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Sun Jul 14 15:56:21 2019 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:56:21 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! Message-ID: 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave From lm at mcvoy.com Sun Jul 14 16:01:52 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:01:52 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com> I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback for what he went through. Bill and Lynne are unsung heros. On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 03:56:21PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and > corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just > about everything). > > -- Dave -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From grog at lemis.com Sun Jul 14 16:23:12 2019 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:23:12 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com> On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 16:15:44 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz >> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and >> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just >> about everything). > > Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific > reference to that event, Here we go (http://gunkies.org/wiki/386BSD_0.1_announcement): 386BSD Release 0.1 "Cut the Tape" 14 July 1992 (Bastille Day) "Vive la Revolution" Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grog at lemis.com Sun Jul 14 16:15:44 2019 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:15:44 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com> On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and > corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just > about everything). Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific reference to that event, but there were earlier versions of 386BSD out there. I have a message relayed from Bill Jolitz by David Harris on 19 March 1992, containing: I have made 386BSD Release 0.0 available with public access sources. This appears to be the same as the message at https://tech-insider.org/unix/research/1992/0319.html Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Sun Jul 14 16:50:11 2019 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:50:11 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Looking for email archives... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190714065011.GA26383@minnie.tuhs.org> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 07:47:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > ... of the pdp7 unix restoration activities. I could find the old > unix72 ones at tuhs, but not the unix v0 archives. Can someone point me > in the right direction? A google search or 4 has turned up nothing. Has > it been archived somewhere? > Warner Try https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pdp7-unix/ Cheers! Warren From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Sun Jul 14 16:53:18 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 06:53:18 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386. Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9 Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" wrote: 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erc at pobox.com Sun Jul 14 17:13:35 2019 From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:13:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Dave Horsfall write: > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and Not really. Bill and Lynne kept very tight control over releases - the word "open" didn't really apply to 386BSD, and there were many Open Source projects well under way before 386BSD was even conceived. Under Linux, the process was a lot more "open", even democratic. One of the reasons I abandoned 386BSD early on and started working on Linux was because I (as well as many others) were very frustrated at the complete contol the Jolitz's exercised over 386BSD, and limited releases to one every six months - much slower than was generally considered to be acceptable for the long list of bugs and fixes in the pipeline. From erc at pobox.com Sun Jul 14 17:15:45 2019 From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:15:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com> References: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Larry McVoy write: > I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback > for what he went through. Bill and Lynne are unsung heros. Many people wished they would've released code and fixes more often. That was one of the reasons that Linux gained considerable attention over 386BSD in those days. From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Sun Jul 14 18:14:06 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:14:06 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: Well 0.0 barely ran at all, but 0.1 was pretty solid.  The big thing was that it was self hosting and by way of the patch kits, forking was not only easy, but inevitable as Free and Net headed in different directions. What really lead to the widespread adoption of Linux was the incredibly limited release information on 386BSD as Linus had mentioned a few times that if he knew about 386BSD he wouldn't have even started Linux.  But in my opinion it was the combination of BSDi over estimating the odds of annoying AT&T/USL, along with how quickly universities like CMU dumped any/all public BSD work, and the rise of Linux being able to run a GNU user land free and independent of BSD code. Otherwise most of us would be running "NiHao BSD, orange aardvark" or however it is they come up with distro names. But I'd say that even though it sputtered out quickly, 386BSD showed that even 2 people could push a free and open OS out into the world via the internet. On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:21 PM +0800, "Ed Carp" wrote: On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Larry McVoy write: > I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback > for what he went through. Bill and Lynne are unsung heros. Many people wished they would've released code and fixes more often. That was one of the reasons that Linux gained considerable attention over 386BSD in those days. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mphuff at gmail.com Sun Jul 14 18:17:32 2019 From: mphuff at gmail.com (Michael Huff) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:17:32 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com> Hi Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps you take to get it all running. As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD! Regards, -a Virtuallyfun fan/reader On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote: > Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last > time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too > fast and had issues. > > But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by > pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting > version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386. > > Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) > to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should > have the shot heard around the world moment. > > It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to > find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9 > > Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix > people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me > and all my peers were all all running Linux. > > But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or > building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. > > Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it > ready to run. > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download > > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" > > wrote: > > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and > corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just > about everything). > > -- Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Sun Jul 14 19:07:26 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 09:07:26 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) In-Reply-To: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com> References: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's always nice to get such nice fan mail.   Ever since the early days of SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others discover and run ancient Unix. It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win. 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD! From: Michael Huff Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!) To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org Hi Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps you take to get it all running. As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD! Regards, -a Virtuallyfun fan/reader On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote: Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386. Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9 Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" wrote: 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tytso at mit.edu Sun Jul 14 22:52:25 2019 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:52:25 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190714125225.GA29912@mit.edu> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:13:35AM -0700, Ed Carp wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Dave Horsfall write: > > > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and > > Not really. Bill and Lynne kept very tight control over releases - the word > "open" didn't really apply to 386BSD, and there were many Open Source > projects well under way before 386BSD wasy even conceived. > > Under Linux, the process was a lot more "open", even democratic. One of the > reasons I abandoned 386BSD early on and started working on Linux was because > I (as well as many others) were very frustrated at the complete contol the > Jolitz's exnercised over 386BSD, and limited releases to one every six months > - much slower than was generally considered to be acceptable for the long > list of bugs and fixes in the pipeline. +1 The term "Open Source" dates to 1998, so saying the movement dates back to 1992 is at best historical revisionism. If what you mean is the concept of distributed development, enabled by the internet, and you don't want to count Linux (which started in 1991), I'd point you at perl from the late 80's. Larry Wall was extremely welcoming to enhancements from people that he didn't know except for the fact that they sent patches that passed technical muster. Even if that person was a random undergraduate systems programmer at MIT... Both Larry Wall and Linus Torvalds subscribed to the "release early, release often" methodology --- which was especially important in the days before distibuted source control systems. If you want to encourage contributors, it's really important that they get positive feedback very quickly. So feedback on proposed patches, and letting people see their contributions show up in a new release is super-important. And that means releases on a schedule measured in days or weeks, and not months. So if anything, I'd claim that 386BSD was a great, early example of an open source anti-pattern. Releases every six months might be fine if you're using a physical distribution medium, like CD-ROM's, but one of the key aspects of the "Open Source movement" was the distributed development methodologies that was enabled by the 'Net. - Ted P.S. There are plenty of other comp.sources.unix and comp.sources.misc "open source" projects from the 1980's, but Perl is one of the much larger, much more visible, and with a very large contributor base, which makes it a very early project that looks like what many people think of when they say "a successful Open Source project" today. From athornton at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 03:47:17 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:47:17 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) In-Reply-To: References: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason Stevens jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com via outdoorexpressionslimited.onmicrosoft.com wrote: > 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019. I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. We did but no one was paying attention. It was 2007-2010. The iPhone and Android were introduced, and the computing world went from an Intel-architecture monopoly (which it had pretty much become by 2005) to an Intel/ARM duopoly (because Intel and AMD focused too much on performance and not enough on making a low-power implementation of the architecture; an Intel-compatible chip *could* have won the mobile wars, but didn't). In the next couple years iPhone and Android (both on ARM) massacred all of the mobile competition. That also meant that the underlying OS for mobile devices became, you guessed it, Unix (or at least something that smells a lot like it). Which is weird, given that something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of history for you. Adam On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:08 AM Jason Stevens < jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: > It's always nice to get such nice fan mail. Ever since the early days of > SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others > discover and run ancient Unix. > > It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after > the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and > fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win. > > 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019. I > wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever > again. > > Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD! > > > From: Michael Huff > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM > Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) > To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > > > Hi > Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not > simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and > Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps > you take to get it all running. > As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd > 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older > days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. > Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD! > Regards, > -a Virtuallyfun fan/reader > On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote: > Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort. Although last time I > revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had > issues. > > But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by > pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version > of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386. > > Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to > Mach 3. But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the > shot heard around the world moment. > > It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD 0.0 just as it was to find > NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9 > > Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people > I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my > peers were all all running Linux. > > But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a > custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. > > Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it > ready to run. > > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download > > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" > wrote: > > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and > corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just > about everything). -- Dave > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 15 05:19:07 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) Message-ID: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adam Thornton > something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering > operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded > user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of history > for you. It's a perfect example of my aphorism, "The hallmark of truly great architecture is not how well it does the things it was designed to do, but how well it does things it was never expected to handle." Noel From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Mon Jul 15 11:54:54 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:54:54 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) In-Reply-To: References: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com> Message-ID: The crazy thing about say the rise and fall of Danger (NetBSD) you had BSD+Mach (NeXTSTEP) striking back on the iPhone, the amazing adoption of Linux on the Android front and the spectacular failure of Microsoft and their stop gap OS, Windows CE (which is without a doubt one of the biggest mistakes they ever made) and how NT/OS2 / Windows NT also made it to mobile space but was too late to the market and withdrawn. Although the race to bring computers to the masses via smartphones certainly was a big deal, but it was all the same players of the '88-93 wars. The real surprise is how a rigid Linux distribution found such wide spread adoption, how NeXT finally found widespread adoption, and how NT was unable to lock in corporate middleware unlike how it did on the desktop. I've owned them all, the danger sidekick was so amazing but the lack of SDK's was embarrassing, then Microsoft bought them and effectively dismantled them (anyone remember the Kin?) which really showed their lost ways.  Once rhr iPhone had been jailbreaked being able to ssh in and out of the phone was amazing, but for me the lockdown was just too much. CE has been so neglected that ie4 in 2007 was such a joke.  Android was a rough ride, but it was available globally with wildly varying apps but it had so much buzz outside of western Europe and North America.  Windows phone was a dud until they finally got the NT kernel running but by then they had changed API directions and platforms so much they alienated everyone.  I still love my Lumia 1020. Its no wonder that USL has no dog in the hunt. Just like how whatever modern sco is called repackaging FreeBSD. From: Adam Thornton Sent: Monday, July 15, 1:48 AM Subject: Re: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Jason Stevens jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com via outdoorexpressionslimited.onmicrosoft.com wrote: > 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. We did but no one was paying attention.  It was 2007-2010.  The iPhone and Android were introduced, and the computing world went from an Intel-architecture monopoly (which it had pretty much become by 2005) to an Intel/ARM duopoly (because Intel and AMD focused too much on performance and not enough on making a low-power implementation of the architecture; an Intel-compatible chip *could* have won the mobile wars, but didn't).  In the next couple years iPhone and Android (both on ARM) massacred all of the mobile competition. That also meant that the underlying OS for mobile devices became, you guessed it, Unix (or at least something that smells a lot like it).  Which is weird, given that something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of history for you. Adam On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:08 AM Jason Stevens wrote: It's always nice to get such nice fan mail.   Ever since the early days of SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others discover and run ancient Unix. It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win. 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD! From: Michael Huff Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!) To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org Hi Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps you take to get it all running. As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD! Regards, -a Virtuallyfun fan/reader On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote: Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386. Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9 Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" wrote: 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mah at mhorton.net Mon Jul 15 13:21:19 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 20:21:19 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Historical Usenet maps In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> References: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net> Message-ID: <6c904e45-4ce7-5c74-8b5e-7551c2ec8a9d@mhorton.net> Thanks to everyone who came to the celebration in Seattle! If you missed it and want your own copy of historical (old) Usenet maps, you can download it now. I have updated the PDF online to include everything that was in the display copy. The full copy is at http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ .  ThisPDF  is intended to be printed, because most of the pages are in landscape.     Mary Ann On 7/9/19 9:28 AM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone > for the great suggestions! > > I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual > serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). > I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing > BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after > the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script > separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's > scrolling history to save the files. > > I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ > > I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this > week. > > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > thing described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > >     Mary Ann > > On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" >> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have >> historical interest. >> >> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not >> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) >> >> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. >> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which >> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which >> are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. >> >> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims >> to be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is >> or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based >> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. >> >> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just >> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would >> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS >> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have >> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with >> the GRF file. >> >> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones >> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at >> least for the early ASCII ones. >> >> Thanks, >> >>     Mary Ann >> >> From pnr at planet.nl Mon Jul 15 18:51:04 2019 From: pnr at planet.nl (Paul Ruizendaal) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:51:04 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] VMS / Unix and old CSRG paper Message-ID: As the last week had a discussion on this list about various VMS+Unix projects from that era, maybe it is a good time to ask the below question again: For a while I have been searching for a 1982 tech report from CSRG: "TR/4 (Proposals for the Enhancement of Unix on the Vax)" This report later evolved into TR/5, the 4.2BSD manual, but I’m specifically looking for TR/4. The only reference that I have for TR/4 is contained in a 1982 discussion about VMS vs. Unix: https://tech-insider.org/vms/research/1982/0111.html (seek for message 5854 from Bill Mitchell). Clutching at straws here, but maybe a copy survived in a box with VMS+Unix materials. Wbr, Paul From wobblygong at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 19:33:53 2019 From: wobblygong at gmail.com (Wesley Parish) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 21:33:53 +1200 Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!) In-Reply-To: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I think that's the hallmark of great engineering, period. Mechanical, civil, electrical ... most probably gravitational if our species ever gets that far ... :) Wesley Parish On 7/15/19, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Adam Thornton > > > something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering > > operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded > > user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of > history > > for you. > > It's a perfect example of my aphorism, "The hallmark of truly great > architecture is not how well it does the things it was designed to do, but > how > well it does things it was never expected to handle." > > Noel > From jpl.jpl at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 22:05:02 2019 From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:05:02 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Turing to be on 50-pound note Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/business/alan-turing-50-pound-note.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Jul 16 01:27:32 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 11:27:32 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] VMS / Unix and old CSRG paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 4:59 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > For a while I have been searching for a 1982 tech report from CSRG: > > "TR/4 (Proposals for the Enhancement of Unix on the Vax)" > I certainly had it at one time, although its possible that was some of the paper I lost in the flood of a few years ago. I've added it a list of documents, I'm trying to find as something that is missing from the archives. This week at LCM+L I realized how much of my stuff has some value [they are missing a lot interesting stuff as Mary Ann pointed out], so my wife is thrilled to hear there is place for some of my archive to go. Now if I can find the time to sort through it.... Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Tue Jul 16 19:32:56 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:32:56 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 Message-ID: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> For anyone that is interested, there is 2 files on Kirk’s DVD that don’t appear on the CD’s mach.86-accent mach.86 The smaller mach.86-accent is a few months newer than the other, and is strictly the kernel. mach.86 contains stuff like the libraries for mach, bindings for pascal, along with an updated libc, and various binaries to run under 4.3BSD. It appears that the Mach project at that time was pretty much in step with the CSRG release. Speaking of pascal, the early version of MIG is actually written in pascal. There is quite a #ifdef ACCENT stuff in the code As well. So the bindings are more than something superficial. I had a major issue trying to use RA81 disks on SIMH, although switching to RP06’s seemed to have made things a little more stable, the larger issue seems to have been the async I/O code, and disabling that increased stability and reduced disk corruption greatly. Setting up the build involved copying files from the ‘cs’ directory to their respective homes, along with the ‘mach/bin/m*’ commands to the /bin directory. Configuring the kernel is very much like a standard BSD kernel config, however the directory needs to exist beforehand, and instead of the in path config command run the config command in the local directory. I have been able to self host a kernel, and build a good portion of world before I realized that the I/O was probably what I was Fighting and went back and restored the 4.3 tape back onto the HP’s and just re-built the kernel to verify it works. For those Wanting the command for SIMH it’s simply ‘set noasync’. The XU adapter worked out of the box with a simple: set xu ena att xu nat:tcp=42323:10.0.2.15:23 Which allowed me to telnet into the VAX, making things much easier than dealing with the console. While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported On the VAX, and if SIMH emulates them. While http://www.oboguev.net/vax_mp/ has a very interesting looking multiprocessor VAX Emulation it’s a fictional model based on the microvax, which I’m pretty sure 4.3BSD/Mach’86 is far too old for. And for those who like the gratuitious dmesg, this is a self hosted Mach build loading hp(0,0)boot Boot : hp(0,0)vmunix 393480+61408+138472 start 0x1fa5 Vax boot: memory from 0x92000 to 0x800000 Kernel virtual space from 0x80000000 to 0x82000000. Mach/4.3/2/1 #1: compiled in /usr/mk/MACH on wb2.cs.cmu.edu at Mon Oct 20 12:54:42 1986 physical memory = 8.00 megabytes. available memory = 5.86 megabytes. using 408 buffers containing 0.79 megabytes of memory VAX 11/780, serial#1234(0), hardware ECO level=7(0) mcr0 at tr1 mcr1 at tr2 uba0 at tr3 zs0 at uba0 csr 172520 vec 224, ipl 15 ts0 at zs0 slave 0 dz0 at uba0 csr 160100 vec 300, ipl 15 de0 at uba0 csr 174510 vec 120, ipl 15 de0: hardware address 08:00:2b:0d:d1:48 mba0 at tr8 hp0 at mba0 drive 0 hp1 at mba0 drive 1 hp2 at mba0 drive 2 hp3 at mba0 drive 7 Changing root device to hp0a I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b4 at gewt.net Wed Jul 17 05:34:39 2019 From: b4 at gewt.net (Madeline Autumn-Rose) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:34:39 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: <7dd0b654-d861-4290-8534-a103d28bbf10@www.fastmail.com> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote: > Emulation it’s a fictional model based on the microvax, which I’m pretty sure 4.3BSD/Mach’86 is far too old for. There are strings in the kernel for the MicroVAX I/II: VAX 8600, serial#%d(%d), hardware ECO level=%d(%d) VAX 820X, urev=%d, patch rev=%d, cpu rev=%d VAX 11/78%c, serial#%d(%d), hardware ECO level=%d(%d) VAX 11/750, hardware level=%d, microcode level=%d MicroVAX-I, hardware level=%d, %c-Float microcode level=%d MicroVAX-II (with%s FPU, SYSCODE:%d, ROM Rev:%d) -- Madeline Autumn-Rose b4 at gewt.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b4 at gewt.net Wed Jul 17 05:26:10 2019 From: b4 at gewt.net (Madeline Autumn-Rose) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:26:10 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote: > I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download `ps` is a little unhappy. Hmm. Wonder why. myname# ps aux USER PID %CPU %MEM SZ RSS TT STAT TIME COMMAND ps: cant read u for pid -26328 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid -15008 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid -32767 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 124 from /dev/kmem I don't think those PIDs should be negative. :) -- Madeline Autumn-Rose b4 at gewt.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpl.jpl at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 06:50:57 2019 From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:50:57 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Another pioneer gone Message-ID: Fernando Corbato died last Friday. http://news.mit.edu/2019/mit-professor-emeritus-fernando-corby-corbato-computing-pioneer-dies-0715 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mah at mhorton.net Wed Jul 17 09:55:22 2019 From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:55:22 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: References: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net> I took a few photos and put them on Facebook.  I just made the posting public. https://www.facebook.com/maryannhorton/posts/10157414501692065     Mary Ann On 7/13/19 5:22 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey > wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote: > >    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of > it.  A party > >    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The truth is > >    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their > wonderful team at > >    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful > venue and > >    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their > >    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank > them enough > >    for keeping so much alive. > >    Clem > > Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I > could have > been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the > Usenix ATC, > could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see! > > > > Yea. That would be great... > > Warner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Wed Jul 17 10:04:35 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:04:35 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 In-Reply-To: References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: Mach has its own ps.  The problem is that it just dumps core.  I rebuilt it from inside the source, and it has some weird pathing issues, but it dumps core too. At that point I kind of gave up. One fun thing is searching the boot string reveals exactly one machine running this build.  Although I would imagine that they probably have nothing left of this.. #N thrash #S DEC VAX 11/785; Mach/4.3/2/1 #O Princeton University, Department of Computer Science #C Pat Parseghian #E princeton!pep #T +1 609 452 6261 #P Engineering Quadrangle, Princeton, NJ 08544 #L 40 21 N / 74 40 W #W princeton!pep (Pat Parseghian); Mon Nov 6 18:19:19 EST 1989 Get Outlook for Android On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:37 AM +0800, "Madeline Autumn-Rose" wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote:  I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here:  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download `ps` is a little unhappy. Hmm. Wonder why. myname# ps aux USER       PID %CPU %MEM   SZ  RSS TT STAT  TIME COMMAND ps: cant read u for pid -26328 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid -15008 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid -32767 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 124 from /dev/kmem I don't think those PIDs should be negative. :) --   Madeline Autumn-Rose   b4 at gewt.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krewat at kilonet.net Wed Jul 17 10:17:13 2019 From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:17:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration In-Reply-To: <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net> References: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com> <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org> <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net> Message-ID: Awesome stuff, Mary Ann ;) On 7/16/2019 7:55 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > > I took a few photos and put them on Facebook.  I just made the posting > public. > > https://www.facebook.com/maryannhorton/posts/10157414501692065 > >     Mary Ann > > On 7/13/19 5:22 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey > > wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote: >> >    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of >> it.  A party >> >    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The >> truth is >> >    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their >> wonderful team at >> >    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful >> venue and >> >    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their >> >    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank >> them enough >> >    for keeping so much alive. >> >    Clem >> >> Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I >> could have >> been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the >> Usenix ATC, >> could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see! >> >> >> >> Yea. That would be great... >> >> Warner >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Wed Jul 17 10:38:46 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:38:46 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! In-Reply-To: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: I dug out my booting copy of 0.0 https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.0-with-bochs.7z/download It runs under bochs.  It's very rough back then, it doesn't run in multiuser, and it's missing a bunch of stuff, making it as distributed impossible to self host.  I had to add in the net2 userland stuff myself to build the kernel, although that isn't in this dump. After booting you have to run : fsck -p mount -a update /etc/netstart There is no nvi/vi instead elvis is supplied. Naturally many were dismissive of 0.0 as it barely ran. In the months that followed 0.1 was much more complete even running in multi user!  The real magic was in the patch kits, culminating in #24 if I'm remembering it right, which was then followed up with the schisim and NetBSD 0.8, which is really just 386BSD with all the patches applied... That version was impossible to track down, and oddly enough surfaced after I managed to rebuild it by filling in parts from the source control and a bit of work. It's a little late for 'on this day' type thing but it's not lost to the winds of time. From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD! To: Dave Horsfall Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 16:15:44 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz >> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and >> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just >> about everything). > > Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific > reference to that event, Here we go (http://gunkies.org/wiki/386BSD_0.1_announcement): 386BSD Release 0.1 "Cut the Tape" 14 July 1992 (Bastille Day) "Vive la Revolution" Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jul 17 17:33:53 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:33:53 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: On 2019-07-16 11:32, Jason Stevens wrote: > While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I > haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported > > On the VAX, and if SIMH emulates them.  While > http://www.oboguev.net/vax_mp/ has a very interesting looking > multiprocessor VAX The only one I can think of is the 11/782 in this time frame. The next experiment, the 3520/3540 were much later, and probably slower ;-) Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jul 17 17:37:44 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:37:44 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> Message-ID: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... Cheers From arnold at skeeve.com Wed Jul 17 18:10:14 2019 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 02:10:14 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > Cheers > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the time Solaris 2.x came along. And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the BSD fast file system. Arnold From arrigo at alchemistowl.org Wed Jul 17 19:28:42 2019 From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:28:42 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: >>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: >> >>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something >>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... >> >> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. >> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... >> >> Cheers >> > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along. > > And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup > company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then > eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the > BSD fast file system. Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down. Arrigo From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Wed Jul 17 20:09:19 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:09:19 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: The only non American one I was aware of came from Brazil, TROPIX. http://allegro.nce.ufrj.br/tropix/index.html I’d written a small thing about it here https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2009/06/18/tropix/ I’ve seen mention of something out of Sweden, although nothing concrete on the name. There is also Демос/DEMOS the BSD code that had been stolen during the cold war, and ported to various Soviet machines & localized. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Arrigo Triulzi Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:01 PM To: arnold at skeeve.com Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: >>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: >> >>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something >>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... >> >> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. >> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... >> >> Cheers >> > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along. > > And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup > company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then > eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the > BSD fast file system. Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down. Arrigo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jul 17 20:42:51 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:42:51 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) ) The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU, running UNIX ... From ben at cogs.com Wed Jul 17 22:32:05 2019 From: ben at cogs.com (Ben Greenfield) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:32:05 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: > On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > > On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: >> >> emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: >>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: >>> >>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something >>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... >>> >>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. >>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... >>> >>> Cheers >>> >> >> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. >> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the >> time Solaris 2.x came along. >> >> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup >> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then >> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the >> BSD fast file system. > > Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time. https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/memory-storage/8/264/1115 https://www.hnf.de/en/permanent-exhibition/exhibition-areas/nixdorf-pioneer-of-decentralized-data-processing/the-products-of-nixdorf-computer-ag.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixdorf_Computer > > I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down. Maybe here. http://www.technikum29.de/en/ Let me know what you find out regarding the Nixdorf 820. I happen to have my friends dad’s old one… Keep Digging, Ben > > Arrigo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dam at opencsw.org Wed Jul 17 22:50:44 2019 From: dam at opencsw.org (Dagobert Michelsen) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:50:44 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org> Hi, Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS : > On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: >> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). > > I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time. There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/ Best regards — Dago -- "You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896 From arrigo at alchemistowl.org Wed Jul 17 23:38:48 2019 From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:38:48 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org> Message-ID: On 17 Jul 2019, at 14:50, Dagobert Michelsen wrote: > Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS : >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: >>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). >> >> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time. > > There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX > https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix > > Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/ Yes, indeed there were many, in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. but, unlike the USA, there is nobody apparently trying to keep it all together. Is the Deutsche Museum in Munich doing something about German IT history like the Computer History Museum in California? In the UK there’s the Historical Computing group within the BCS who publish a frequent newsletter with their work, they have exhibits at Bletchley Park and they took it upon them to write the histories of the Lyons, ICL, AMT, Inmos, etc. I was recently trying to find something about Olivetti’s Unix: Olivetti re-branded the AT&T 3B2 and AT&T re-branded their beautiful M24 on which I briefly used Xenix for the 8086 (I *think* it was branded Xenix) but it was just a US UNIX version which spoke English. Arrigo From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 00:12:05 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:12:05 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86 In-Reply-To: References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:56 AM emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2019-07-16 11:32, Jason Stevens wrote: > > > While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I > > haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported > > Historically, the Mach MP work was done on an Encore system not Vaxen but I've forgotten which model and what the processor was. I wanted to say Encore used the NS 16032, but I'm not willing to go out on a limb on that thought. Bob Baron, Mike Accetta or Rich Rashid probably remembers. You might look at the code for Encore support, and that might give you a hint. FWIW: I've lost track of Bob who was at Pitt last time I knew, but Mike is still at Microsoft. I believe I heard Rich retired, but I'm not sure of that. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 00:15:23 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:15:23 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> Message-ID: RR and the ISC products were different. RR was done in Billerica, MA and ran a variant of SunOS [FWIW: some of the RR guys came to Stellar work on the HW team]. ISC did the 386 port for Intel/ATT/IBM much earlier than that. Later, as was pointed out, Sun ended up with the IP when they bought it from Kodak. On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:10 AM wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > > > Cheers > > > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along. > > And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup > company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then > eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the > BSD fast file system. > > Arnold > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 00:34:51 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:34:51 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the > Unix-like operating systems? Yes, I talk about it in my paper in the digital release of volume *CNAM Historical Booklets* including your respective texts. http://technique-societe.cnam.fr/la-recherche-sur-les-systemes-des-pivots-dans-l-histoire-de-l-informatique-ii-ii-988170.kjsp?RH=cdhte Note the web site is in French, and all the papers are A4 format, some are French some are in English (like mine own). [Send me email off line if you want a copy of the paper and don't want try to get the whole thing]. > For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on > Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it > for no mare than about two hours..). > Close, not quite. Contemporaries but not the same. Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.] > > I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix > (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in > Europe. Fair, although not completely true. USENIX and it's European sisters did a number of conferences back in the day. If we missed, other than Australia, we probably did less in Asia that we could have. The truth was that the European's wanted to be published in the ACM or USENIX pubs (just like most American's and Brits wanted to publish in the Swiss and German journals for Physics and Chemistry in the 30s and 40s). But I think a lot of us in the community, certainly were aware of the lot of cool things happening 'across the pond.' Please don't sell yourself and your non-North American sisters and brothers so short. > I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history > is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues > in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down. > That's a shame to hear. I hope we can find more of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 00:41:27 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:41:27 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS < tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > > I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the > large computer company at that time. > Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX. Both were founders of OSF. Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own. Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems. IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time. Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at cogs.com Thu Jul 18 01:08:30 2019 From: ben at cogs.com (Ben Greenfield) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:08:30 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com> Yes, I should have been more careful with my phrasing. To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study. After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens. > On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS > wrote: > > I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time. > Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX. Both were founders of OSF. Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own. Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems. IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time. Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Thu Jul 18 01:11:01 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:11:01 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > > > Cheers > > > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along. Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the time just didn't want competition for SPARC. Which was sort of silly, a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was when RISC actually made sense. But perhaps they had a crystal ball and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the road? I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jul 18 01:31:08 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:31:08 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:11 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > > > > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > > time Solaris 2.x came along. > > Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the > time just didn't want competition for SPARC. Which was sort of silly, > a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was > when RISC actually made sense. But perhaps they had a crystal ball > and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the > road? I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386. > And wasn't it a weird version of SunOS? Support for the Roadrunners was only in a couple of releases too (4.0, 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 only). Most of the sunos sources that have fallen off a truck on the internet are 4.0.3 and newer, so there's no i386 support in them. I used a Sun386/250 at Wollongong to do testing. Mostly it ran X and was one of the available X workstations in the testing lab since it was weird enough people didn't want to use it (though the Sony News box next to it might also have come in a close second for weird). The wikipedia page says there was a Sun486 (code named apache) that was designed and a few built, but that was then cancelled before release. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com Thu Jul 18 01:36:43 2019 From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:36:43 +0800 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN: https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280 These days, there’s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards. But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can’t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking. And now, we’re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious. SPARCstation™ IPC. At $8,995*, it’s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it’s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference…. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Larry McVoy Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM To: arnold at skeeve.com Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > > > Cheers > > > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along. Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the time just didn't want competition for SPARC. Which was sort of silly, a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was when RISC actually made sense. But perhaps they had a crystal ball and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the road? I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athornton at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 01:40:31 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:40:31 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:42 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > >> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). > > In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) ) > The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or > VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could > use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU, > running UNIX ... > ….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pechter at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 02:04:16 2019 From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:04:16 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: <5996d146-37d4-4a8e-9a44-fc941bb09c57.maildroid@localhost> Don't forget Siemens-Nixdorf was a major reseller of Pyramid OS/x and DC/OSx (SysV R4) and eventually they purchased the remnants of Pyramid after AT&T (a major Pyramid shop and OEM) bought NCR and stopped using/selling Pyramid when DC./OSx was just appearing on the Pyramid MIServer MIPS R3000 boxes. Bill Sent from pechter at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: Clem Cole To: Ben Greenfield Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Sent: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:42 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS < tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > > I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the > large computer company at that time. > Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX. Both were founders of OSF. Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own. Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems. IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time. Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Thu Jul 18 02:56:45 2019 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:56:45 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <20190717165645.GF16562@mcvoy.com> Wow, those came out when I was there, I've done a ton of work on those machines. The first Sun cluster was built from them. But I've never seen that ad before, it's classic Sun. On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:36:43PM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote: > Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN: > > https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280 > > These days, there???s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards. > But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can???t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking. > And now, we???re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious. > SPARCstation??? IPC. > At $8,995*, it???s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it???s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference???. > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Larry McVoy > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM > To: arnold at skeeve.com > Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > > > > > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something > > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > > > > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. > > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > > time Solaris 2.x came along. > > Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the > time just didn't want competition for SPARC. Which was sort of silly, > a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was > when RISC actually made sense. But perhaps they had a crystal ball > and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the > road? I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386. > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 04:01:21 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:01:21 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:40 AM Adam Thornton wrote: > ….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone > Yeah - these boards are pretty cool. I think the LCM+L was using either these or something like them. The don't use real rotating storage anymore if they can help it. [Actually, the coolest thing I saw last week was the core memory replacement they made for the CDC-6x00 systems. The cores got too unreliable. So they made a board and lucite box that that form and fit compatible. They told me a neat story. It seems after they announced to the world that they had made it, somebody in the US DoD asked about availability -- seems some old CDC gear is still in use [which seems like an application for simh to me]. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at quintile.net Thu Jul 18 04:22:28 2019 From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:22:28 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] European unix-like OS Message-ID: Nearly all the unixes i used where from the US, but one stands out. I spent a week or two trying to get my head around Helios which was aimed at parallel systems (transputer). I believe it was French in origin, and wad unix-like at the command line but the shell supported mesh pipelines and other unique ideas. interesting but hard to manage.. -Steve From dam at opencsw.org Thu Jul 18 07:09:51 2019 From: dam at opencsw.org (Dagobert Michelsen) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:09:51 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com> Message-ID: <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org> Hi, Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS : > To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study. > > After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens. Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only): https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel The collection of mainframes is quite large and they have a good collection of Zuse machines (although they lack a working Z1 which is presented in Berlin and if you are lucky is explained by Horst Zuse, the son of Konrad Zuse). If you ever happen to be in northern Germany and want to give it a try let me know and I’ll make sure you get a tour in english :-) Best regards — Dago -- "You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896 From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Jul 18 08:48:16 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:48:16 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > > Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? Among others, there is of course Minix. -- Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bakul at bitblocks.com Thu Jul 18 09:22:36 2019 From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:22:36 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi wrote: > > For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). > Close, not quite. Contemporaries but not the same. > > Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.] A good paper on Chorus: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984! Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel. From grog at lemis.com Thu Jul 18 10:04:25 2019 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:04:25 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) In-Reply-To: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at 9:37:44 +0200, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole wrote: > >> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something >> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun... > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. I used it in the early 1990s (Interactive UNIX/386, based on System V, IIRC; there were other versions with different lineage). My recollections of it were less positive than yours, maybe only by comparison. Installation (hundreds of small components, each with their own license key) was a nightmare. In that connection, and by way of comparison, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned BSDI's BSD/386 yet, which grew up intimately related to Jolitz' 386BSD. Jolitz worked with BSDI until (the beginning of?) December 1991, when he left due to disagreement with BSDI's licence model, apparently destroying all his work. I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before Jolitz released 386BSD. In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid, installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were cheaper binary-only options). It blew Interactive UNIX out of the water. This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18 It's a pity that BSD/386 (later BSD/OS) went away, though later we incorporated some parts of the kernel into FreeBSD (with BSDI's permission and blessing, of course; see http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-jun2000.php). In contrast to the other early offerings, it Just Worked. But the idea of paying for operating systems seemed to have passed its use-by date. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 18 10:04:58 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:04:58 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com> Message-ID: It is an uK. I have a complete set of doc but I don’t think I have the code at this point. Fyi AT&T was supposed to use Chorus for SVR5 but it never shipped. The chorus folks opened an office in Portland Or. iirc Michel Gien moved out there for a bit. [We were working for both OSF and ATT at Locus. Fun times. ] Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:22 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole wrote: >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi wrote: >>> For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). >> Close, not quite. Contemporaries but not the same. >> >> Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.] > > A good paper on Chorus: > https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf > > Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984! > Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel. > From rich.salz at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 10:16:59 2019 From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:16:59 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) In-Reply-To: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was 1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grog at lemis.com Thu Jul 18 11:08:25 2019 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:08:25 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20190718010825.GC73488@eureka.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at 20:16:59 -0400, Richard Salz wrote: > BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was > 1-800-ITS-UNIX. Correct. > I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not. Not for that. I think they got a "cease and desist" or whatever it's called, and they changed their number. They were, however, the main group that got sued in the Unix wars, along with UCB, but not the free BSDs. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wobblygong at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 18:39:33 2019 From: wobblygong at gmail.com (Wesley Parish) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:39:33 +1200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> Message-ID: And Robert Switzer's Tunix as laid out in his Operating Systems: A Practical Approach. Used the SysVR3 API iirc, as opposed to the 7th Edition Minix of 1987. Wesley Parish On 7/18/19, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi > wrote: >> >> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the >> Unix-like operating systems? > > Among others, there is of course Minix. > > -- Chris > > From arrigo at alchemistowl.org Thu Jul 18 18:56:08 2019 From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:56:08 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org> <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com> <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org> Message-ID: <1BA04EFA-1E15-44E4-AA6D-631CAE53B3A2@alchemistowl.org> On 17 Jul 2019, at 23:09, Dagobert Michelsen wrote: > Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS : >> To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study. >> >> After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens. > > Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented > in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences > in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only): > https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel Fantastic! Now not only should I visit Berlin but also Kiel and, in the meantime, I can get some sailing in! Arrigo From chet.ramey at case.edu Fri Jul 19 01:01:06 2019 From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:01:06 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) In-Reply-To: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <714626ee-af90-4806-7f24-339d842a220d@case.edu> On 7/17/19 8:04 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before > Jolitz released 386BSD. In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid, > installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were > cheaper binary-only options). It blew Interactive UNIX out of the > water. This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at > http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18 Agreed. We used BSD/386 and BSD/OS pretty heavily at Case. We ran a significant portion of the infrastructure services on it. It was solid. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet at case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 15:32:16 2019 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:32:16 +0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 Message-ID: >Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..). >I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only >Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know >where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down. In the 80-tisch I worked at Philips Data Systems in Apeldoorn, the Netherlands. Not in Development, but in System Support. Philips was working on a System V.3 based UNIX running on Motorola 68000 CPUs in a P9X00 server. Called MPX as in Multi-Processor UNIX. The Multi part refers to having an Ethernet, X25 and SDLC board running a tailored version of the OS to offload the main CPU. See for example https://www.cbronline.com/news/better_late_philips_enters_the_uk_unix_market/ https://www.cbronline.com/news/philips_ready_with_68030_models_for_its_p9000_unix_workstation_family Later Philips moved to i386 with a 'unknown version' based UNIX. Division was bought by DEC (some say sold off by Philips) in 1991 and we moved to DEC's choice of SCO UNIX. The 'intelligent comm boards were ported and still running the separate OS though. Unfortunately I never had any of that OS type of source and my paper archive was left behind. Only have some small higher level test stuff and my mail archive. For a while I was "rudi blom" , later rudi blom"@apd.mts From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Jul 24 11:04:52 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:04:52 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> >> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. >> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the >> time Solaris 2.x came along. >Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the >time just didn't want competition for SPARC. I have vague memories of the Road Runner. But I also recall, circa 1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that I wanted to get my hands on. At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus. We were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained. Windows was starting to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their code on. Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was hiding it from everyone. At the front-end of the campus build, my thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and Windows. At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port. Both booth shitheads could not be bothered. They only wanted to SPARC the booth babes across the aisle. Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release? I've forgotten now. Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed UNIX on every PC that hit the campus. Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening. With a "million dollar" donation. It was a heap of mostly broken workstations that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op. Same gig that AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-) --lyndon From krewat at kilonet.net Wed Jul 24 11:30:00 2019 From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:30:00 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <0db7c299-5208-a0c4-9ff9-a5d4eac2fbe5@kilonet.net> On 7/23/2019 9:04 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started > nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about > doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port. Both booth > shitheads could not be bothered. They only wanted to SPARC the > booth babes across the aisle. I can't help, aside from saying I'd love to get my hands on a '386 based SunOS... But that statement has to be the most epic description of a conference I've ever read. That, and using SPARC as a verb. Well done ;) art k. From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu Jul 25 07:53:45 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:53:45 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: Can you share any details or photos about that 3B? Academia and cash strapped aren’t terms I’d tie together in my generation in the US with all the loldebt and gilding. On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 6:12 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > >> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > >> time Solaris 2.x came along. > > >Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the > >time just didn't want competition for SPARC. > > I have vague memories of the Road Runner. But I also recall, circa > 1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that > I wanted to get my hands on. > > At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus. We > were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained. Windows was starting > to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their > code on. Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was > hiding it from everyone. At the front-end of the campus build, my > thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the > Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and > Windows. > > At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started > nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about > doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port. Both booth > shitheads could not be bothered. They only wanted to SPARC the > booth babes across the aisle. > > Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release? I've forgotten now. > Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed > UNIX on every PC that hit the campus. > > Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening. With a > "million dollar" donation. It was a heap of mostly broken workstations > that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op. Same gig that > AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-) > > --lyndon > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri Jul 26 05:16:27 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:16:27 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386 In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> Kevin Bowling writes: > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B? Nope. The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we "decommissioned" it. They were lost many moves ago. But even if I still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the guilty. Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-) --lyndon From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Fri Jul 26 05:29:32 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:29:32 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it sucked it’s still interesting On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Kevin Bowling writes: > > > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B? > > Nope. The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we > "decommissioned" it. They were lost many moves ago. But even if I > still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the > guilty. > > Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-) > > --lyndon > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 26 06:47:58 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:47:58 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project was canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC. On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 3:30 PM Kevin Bowling wrote: > ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in > time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it > sucked it’s still interesting > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg > wrote: > >> Kevin Bowling writes: >> >> > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B? >> >> Nope. The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we >> "decommissioned" it. They were lost many moves ago. But even if I >> still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the >> guilty. >> >> Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-) >> >> --lyndon >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From web at loomcom.com Sat Jul 27 04:18:06 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:18:06 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> Clem Cole writes: > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin > these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project was > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC. This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC, and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200 systems. The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share! -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From web at loomcom.com Sat Jul 27 04:18:06 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:18:06 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> Clem Cole writes: > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin > these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project was > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC. This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC, and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200 systems. The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share! -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From richard at inf.ed.ac.uk Sat Jul 27 04:40:42 2019 From: richard at inf.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:40:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) In-Reply-To: Richard Salz's message of Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: <20190726184042.7969A2770FED@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk> > BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was > 1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not. There was a joke that MIT should have sued them too, for violating their trademark on ITS. -- Richard -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From clemc at ccc.com Sat Jul 27 05:24:24 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:24:24 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: No promises, but I did send him an email. On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:24 PM Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Clem Cole writes: > > > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the > 3B4000's > > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the > Austin > > these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project > was > > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC. > > This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since > I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC, > and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to > emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200 > systems. > > The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen > precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom > Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share! > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA, USA > web at loomcom.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Sat Jul 27 05:24:24 2019 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:24:24 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) In-Reply-To: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com> <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com> <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com> <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org> <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca> <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca> <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: No promises, but I did send him an email. On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:24 PM Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Clem Cole writes: > > > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the > 3B4000's > > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the > Austin > > these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project > was > > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC. > > This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since > I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC, > and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to > emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200 > systems. > > The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen > precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom > Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share! > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA, USA > web at loomcom.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauer at technologists.com Mon Jul 29 05:27:02 2019 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:27:02 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] just over 32 years ago Message-ID: <02be1edd-8367-f8a1-6b89-df27dbf080d9@technologists.com> https://technologists.com/photos/1987/fullsize/1987ThompsonRitchie.jpg (thanks to Mike Tilson) -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Mon Jul 29 14:34:04 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:34:04 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] DMERT Message-ID: I was talking about DMERT today and Larry McVoy was wondering if it slipped out in any fashion. I believe there were official trainers as well as a production emulator that ran it on Solaris/SPARC. I have never seen them anywhere. Old phone phreaks I’m acquainted with had illicit access. Does anyone know if source or the trainer or emulator are tangible? I enjoyed the BTSJ on DMERT as much as the Unix articles. Highly recommend reading. Regards, Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From xenonelive at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 19:59:34 2019 From: xenonelive at gmail.com (Stephan Han.) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:29:34 +0530 Subject: [TUHS] Who's behind the UNIX filesystem permission implementation Message-ID: Hello Unix enthusiasts. I'd like to know who or the group of people behind implementing this filesystem permission system. Since we are using this system for nearly 40 years and it addresses all the aspects of the permission matter without any hustle. I'm inspired to know who/how came up with this theory? Also if it derived from somewhere else or If there's an origin story about this, it would be worth to share. Cheers. Stephan -- No When -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: