From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Jan 6 09:19:58 2002 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 18:19:58 -0500 Subject: [pups] Qbus IDE adapter Message-ID: <3C378A1E.39CAFFC0@nktelco.net> I have been playing with a Qbus to IDE drive adapter for a while, and with some free time this Christmas, I got around to working on it and documenting it. You can find information here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ In summary, I have designed and built a Q22-Bus to ATA disk adapter and written drivers for 2.11BSD on my microPDP-11/73. The adapter is PIO only (for now) and the driver only works with LBA capable disks. I posted this to the NetBSD/vax mailing list last week. If there is sufficient interest, we might be able to get boards made. Someone is writing a NetBSD driver and I have a 2.11BSD driver already. -chuck From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jan 17 17:36:05 2002 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: 17 Jan 2002 08:36:05 +0100 Subject: [pups] GCC Message-ID: <85r8opmntm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10 Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ programming From agrier at poofygoof.com Fri Jan 18 16:53:20 2002 From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:53:20 -0800 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: ; from lars@nocrew.org on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100 Message-ID: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Hello, > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?) -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com "Making people dance so hard their pants almost fall off is kind of fun." -- David Evans From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Fri Jan 18 17:07:25 2002 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 08:07:25 +0100 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>; from agrier@poofygoof.com on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800 References: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> Message-ID: <20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? > > on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?) On the PDP: very unlikely. gcc is far too big to fit in even split ID I would assume?! -- | / o / /_ _ email: wilko at FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, the Netherlands From lars at nocrew.org Fri Jan 18 19:06:10 2002 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: 18 Jan 2002 10:06:10 +0100 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> <20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <85d708jaf1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Wilko Bulte writes: > On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? > > on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?) Cross compilation, I assume. Doesn't matter to me, I just want to know if anyone's using it. > On the PDP: very unlikely. gcc is far too big to fit in even split > ID I would assume?! Yes. Dunno if it could be made to work with overlays or something, but it'd be very slow. -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10 Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ programming From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Fri Jan 18 22:44:17 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:44:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> from "Aaron J. Grier" at "Jan 17, 2002 10:53:20 pm" Message-ID: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Aaron J. Grier: > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? > on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?) Not until you can get a 32-bit process address space and virtual paging on the PDP-11 :-) Warren From bill at cs.scranton.edu Sat Jan 19 00:49:20 2002 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Not only is size a problem, but even as a cross-compiler it is lacking. I am pretty sure support for the PDP stopped many releases ago and even at the peak of support I don't believe there was ever as or ld support for the PDP. I have considered reviving the PDP cross compiling work and looking at writting a translator to take the output from -S (which I am quite certain would be AT&T format) and convert it to Macro-11. I usually end out weighing this against the work necessary to just write a C-compiler for the PDP (using Small C as a starting point). If only I could retire so I'ld have the free time. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From lars at nocrew.org Sat Jan 19 01:31:03 2002 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: 18 Jan 2002 16:31:03 +0100 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> References: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Message-ID: <85y9ivislk.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Bill Gunshannon writes: > I don't believe there was ever as or ld support for the PDP. I added PDP-11 support to GNU binutils last year. It's not well tested, though. -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10 Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ programming From agrier at poofygoof.com Sat Jan 19 04:06:37 2002 From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:06:37 -0800 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org>; from wkt@minnie.tuhs.org on Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:44:17PM +1000 References: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20020118100637.B16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:44:17PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Aaron J. Grier: > > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11? > > on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?) > > Not until you can get a 32-bit process address space and virtual paging > on the PDP-11 :-) isn't that what VAX is all about? ;) -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com "Making people dance so hard their pants almost fall off is kind of fun." -- David Evans From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Jan 19 05:00:19 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:00:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Not only is size a problem, but even as a cross-compiler it is lacking. > I am pretty sure support for the PDP stopped many releases ago and even > at the peak of support I don't believe there was ever as or ld support > for the PDP. I have considered reviving the PDP cross compiling work > and looking at writting a translator to take the output from -S (which > I am quite certain would be AT&T format) and convert it to Macro-11. > I usually end out weighing this against the work necessary to just write > a C-compiler for the PDP (using Small C as a starting point). If only > I could retire so I'ld have the free time. :-) Two things. 1. DECUS C might be a better starting point. 2. With DECUS C, you also have an as, which might fit the bill without having to convert stuff to Macro-11. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From engdahl at cle.ab.com Sat Jan 19 07:54:03 2002 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:54:03 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC References: Message-ID: <009f01c1a06a$a4c47300$4acb9782@ra.rockwell.com> Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI compliant. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA Mayfield Heights Labs engdahl at safeaccess.com 440-646-7326 From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Sat Jan 19 08:13:26 2002 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:13:26 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC Message-ID: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Jonathan Engdahl: Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI compliant. lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX environment. But my environment is on VAXes, not PDP-11s; the lcc I use probably cannot be compiled to a core compiler binary of less than about 180KB, of which 136KB is text, and that is without any real code generators. (For those who know lcc: I am using a slightly-hacked-up lcc 3.6; the 180KB binary includes just the symbolic and null code generators, not the enormous one I ended up with for the VAX.) On the other hand, it is probably easier to split lcc into overlays or multiple passes to make it fit on a PDP-11 than to do the same to gcc; and lcc works fine as a cross-compiler. And it's a good solid ANSI compiler; enough so that it is a little annoying to use it on heritage code (it grumbles, correctly, if a function returns no value and wasn't declared void), and helpful or very painful (depending on your point of view) when used on really old code that is sleazy about mixing types of pointers in procedure arguments, or reusing one structure as part of another, or the like. I had an interesting time a few months ago getting an old version of tbl to compile cleanly and produce correct results under lcc; the program contained some ancient constructs that are truly remarkable to look back on, especially for those of us who started out programming that way and learned better the hard way ... If I were going to work with PDP-11s, I would probably use lcc as a cross-compiler myself, after writing or snitching a code generator of course. Norman Wilson From bwc at borf.com Sat Jan 19 08:29:11 2002 From: bwc at borf.com (bwc at borf.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:29:11 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC Message-ID: <200201182227.IAA22246@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago. It's definitly not ANSI C, in fact it's not quite K&R C, but I really like coding in it. My advice would be to start there. Just check out the chapter on precidence parsing in the dragon book before you work on the compiler. Brantley Coile From bill at cs.scranton.edu Sat Jan 19 10:08:06 2002 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:08:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <200201182227.IAA22246@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020118190639.Y92571-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 bwc at borf.com wrote: > Just check out the chapter on precidence parsing in the dragon book > before you work on the compiler. The dragon book!! The best book on compilers ever written. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From grog at lemis.com Sat Jan 19 10:53:51 2002 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:23:51 +1030 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) In-Reply-To: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote: > Jonathan Engdahl: > > Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI > compliant. > > lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX > environment. It also has the advantage that there's a good book about it describing exactly how it works: "A retargetable C compiler: Design and implementation" by Christopher Fraser and David Hanson (Benjamin/Cummings, 1995, ISBN 0-8053-1670-1). Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From lars at nocrew.org Sat Jan 19 18:48:10 2002 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: 19 Jan 2002 09:48:10 +0100 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC References: Message-ID: <85d706iv5h.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Johnny Billquist writes: > DECUS C might be a better starting point. norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca writes: > I would probably use lcc as a cross-compiler myself, after writing > or snitching a code generator of course. bwc at borf.com writes: > I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago. > My advice would be to start there. How about the 2.11BSD compiler? -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10 Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ programming From lothar.felten at gmx.net Sat Jan 19 21:43:37 2002 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:43:37 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm Message-ID: hi there, maybe someone can help me installing 2.11BSD on a PDP-11/83. my problem: the standalone disklabel-programm stops when displaying the MSCP disk information. in the console ODT i write/see: BOOT MU0 Starting system from mu0 83Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500 :tms(0,1) disklabel Disk? ra(0,0) d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)? d type:MSCP disk:RD54 flags: bytes/sector: 512 sectors/reack: 17 tr and then it just stops, right after "tr", but the RUN led stays on. when i try to disklabel a RL02 disk i get invalid disk (for rl(0,1)) or a system stop (for rl(0,0) with RUN led off). i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?) error, or maybe the tape is bad. the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50 tapes, i made several ones, because i thought it might be a tape error, but all tapes are the same. hardware: PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54 (maxtor), two RL02 disks. qbus cards (top to bottom): *cpu (quad) *memory (quad) *controller for RL02 disks (quad) *controller for RD54 disks (double) *controller for TK50 (double) *network controller (double) i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i didn´t change the order of the cards since i picked the box up. there are no empty slots between the cards, and i´m not sure if the Qbus need a special terminator. i made a TK50 boottape on my DECstation 5000/200. i got the software from the pups archive, and made the tape with the "maketape" program. any idea welcome. regards, --lothar From SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM Sun Jan 20 00:54:35 2002 From: SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM (SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 9:54:35 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC Message-ID: <020119095435.21e004b5@TRAILING-EDGE.COM> Johnny Billquist writes: > DECUS C might be a better starting point. DECUS C is kind-of a funny case. Whereas most C compilers are traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language. For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were rewritten in C and compiled themselves. DECUS C is the odd guy out because it never tried to reach this milestone. In some sense this is a good thing, because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C compiler. Tim. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 20 01:12:37 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:12:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <020119095435.21e004b5@TRAILING-EDGE.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM wrote: > Johnny Billquist writes: > > DECUS C might be a better starting point. > > DECUS C is kind-of a funny case. Whereas most C compilers are > traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C > is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language. True. > For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were > rewritten in C and compiled themselves. DECUS C is the odd guy out because > it never tried to reach this milestone. In some sense this is a good thing, > because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C compiler. Which definitely is a good thing in this case. Since most systems don't have a C compiler anyway, the first compiler have to get down there someway, and MACRO-11 is the only language you *know* exist. I'm soon done with a cleanup of DECUS-C by the way. I've tried to collect all the different versions I can find, and incorporated my own fixes as well. This version will support I/D space correctly in RSX (which no other version except my in-house hacks have done), will have a working profiler again, and also supports RMS and DAP. Fun fun... I'm testing it right now, and most things looks like they are working like a charm. However, if someone have plenty of time, and an RSTS/E or RT-11 system around, I'd sure appreciate some help. I've tried to keep those parts up-to-date as well, but I cannot test, or fix broken things. This compiler have been a mess for many years now... About time it got some cleanup. Oh. And I don't know if Allan Baldwin (sp?) have some extra hacks in for his IP-stack, and I haven't even investigated. Anyone know? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jan 20 02:05:02 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:05:02 GMT Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" "[pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 12:43) References: Message-ID: <10201191605.ZM9787@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 19, 12:43, lothar felten wrote: > i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?) > error, or maybe the tape is bad. > the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50 > tapes, i made several ones, because i thought > it might be a tape error, but > all tapes are the same. > > hardware: > PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54 > (maxtor), two RL02 disks. > qbus cards (top to bottom): > *cpu (quad) > *memory (quad) > *controller for RL02 disks (quad) > *controller for RD54 disks (double) > *controller for TK50 (double) > *network controller (double) FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but that layout looks OK apart from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the memory shold be in the first slot and the CPU in the second. The essential difference between an 11/73 and an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory. Assuming your backplane is the right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that your memory is a single 4MB board, you should swap them round, otherwise what you actually have is an 11/73. I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right place. It's possible you have an old version of the firmware on it, but it should still work even if you do. > i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i > didn´t change the order of the > cards since i picked the box up. > there are no empty slots between the cards, > and i´m not sure if the Qbus > need a special terminator. There normally isn't an extra terminator in an 11/73 or 11/83, unless you add an expansion backplane. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From steve at smdconsulting.com Sun Jan 20 02:22:31 2002 From: steve at smdconsulting.com (Davidson, Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:22:31 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: GCC Message-ID: <51E99925D01CD511B2FA00A0244EE8EED752@SMDCONSULTING01> Johnny, I have access to both RT-11 and RSTS/E systems here. I would be happy to give the testing a shot. My preference would be RT first, and then if you get no other takers, RSTS. Regards, Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Johnny Billquist [SMTP:bqt at update.uu.se] > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:13 > To: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com > Cc: PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [pups] Re: GCC > > On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM wrote: > > > Johnny Billquist writes: > > > DECUS C might be a better starting point. > > > > DECUS C is kind-of a funny case. Whereas most C compilers are > > traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C > > is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language. > > True. > > > For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were > > rewritten in C and compiled themselves. DECUS C is the odd guy out > because > > it never tried to reach this milestone. In some sense this is a good > thing, > > because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C > compiler. > > Which definitely is a good thing in this case. Since most systems don't > have a C compiler anyway, the first compiler have to get down there > someway, and MACRO-11 is the only language you *know* exist. > > I'm soon done with a cleanup of DECUS-C by the way. I've tried to collect > all the different versions I can find, and incorporated my own fixes as > well. This version will support I/D space correctly in RSX (which no other > version except my in-house hacks have done), will have a working profiler > again, and also supports RMS and DAP. Fun fun... > I'm testing it right now, and most things looks like they are working like > a charm. > However, if someone have plenty of time, and an RSTS/E or RT-11 system > around, I'd sure appreciate some help. I've tried to keep those parts > up-to-date as well, but I cannot test, or fix broken things. > > This compiler have been a mess for many years now... About time it got > some cleanup. > > Oh. And I don't know if Allan Baldwin (sp?) have some extra hacks in for > his IP-stack, and I haven't even investigated. > Anyone know? > > Johnny > > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 19 23:49:19 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 14:49:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200201191349.g0JDnJU01148@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Jan, lothar felten wrote: > hardware: > PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54 > (maxtor), two RL02 disks. > qbus cards (top to bottom): > *cpu (quad) > *memory (quad) > *controller for RL02 disks (quad) > *controller for RD54 disks (double) > *controller for TK50 (double) > *network controller (double) What enclosure? BA23? If yes you have empty slots between the cards as this box has 3 Q/CD slots on top and 5 Q/Q slots below. Have a look at the QBus HOWTO at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From lothar.felten at gmx.net Sun Jan 20 05:47:03 2002 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:47:03 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm Message-ID: hi there! well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so enclosure and backplane should be the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). backplane should be Q22/CD configuration, but i´ll open the box and look for the 501- number to be sure. on the back there is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass the number too). do all 11/83 use PMI ? but the memory seems to work, or has the cpu board some memory on it? when i picked up the box they booted it, i suppose this configuration was the way they used it there and should have worked. the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable wich goes to a small board (wich was hanging on the backside) and a small frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was hanging on it. it looks like ************* * *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a batch?) * O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose) * *'''''* ************* * X B * X = run on/off ?(green led) B = reset ? * X X * X = write protect(red led) X = online(green led) for disk 0 ? * X X * X = write protect(red led) X = online(green led) for disk 1 ? ************* X is a switch with led B is a button with led i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel, and since there is nothing written on it, i tried to compare with a picture found on the web, but i´m not sure if i´m right. can someone tell me if i´m right ? i asked those guys from where i picked up the box, but they told me that the last guy using the pdp left some years ago, and in 1999 they just powered it off. this explains also the small paper sticking on the pdp that showed how to login and shutdown the box. root password is written on it *g*. tomorrow i´ll open the box again. thanks for your fast response. -- lothar FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but that layout looks OK apart >from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the memory shold be in the first slot and the CPU in the second. The essential difference between an 11/73 and an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory. Assuming your backplane is the right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that your memory is a single 4MB board, you should swap them round, otherwise what you actually have is an 11/73. I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right place. It's possible you have an old version of the firmware on it, but it should still work even if you do. all the planes in the backplane are genuine dec parts. -- Pete What enclosure? BA23? If yes you have empty slots between the cards as this box has 3 Q/CD slots on top and 5 Q/Q slots below. Have a look at the QBus HOWTO at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ -- tschuess, Jochen From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Sun Jan 20 07:19:08 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:19:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: GCC In-Reply-To: <85d706iv5h.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> from Lars Brinkhoff at "Jan 19, 2002 09:48:10 am" Message-ID: <200201192119.g0JLJ8i00979@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Lars Brinkhoff: > norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca writes: > > I would probably use lcc as a cross-compiler myself, after writing > > or snitching a code generator of course. > > bwc at borf.com writes: > > I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago. > > My advice would be to start there. > > How about the 2.11BSD compiler? The next question is, why to do this, and for which operating system(s)? If it's to get an ANSI C compiler, or some extra performance, then I can see the point. If it's to ditch a `contaminated' compiler, then I can see a few difficulties, especially if the target is 2.11BSD The 2.11BSD linker knows an awful lot about overlays, and any replacement would need to do the same. Anway, that's my $0.02. I thought about porting lcc to 2.11BSD ages ago, but I've never had the time to do it. Cheers, Warren From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jan 20 08:18:32 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:18:32 GMT Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 20:47) References: Message-ID: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 19, 20:47, lothar felten wrote: > hi there! > > well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so > enclosure and backplane should be > the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). If I were to be really picky, I'd say you meant microPDP-11/23. 11/23-plus would mean a BA11-S enclosure with a different type of backplane :-) > backplane should > be Q22/CD configuration, but > i´ll open the box and look for the 501- > number to be sure. Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has a model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A. In an H9728-A the top three slots are Q22/CD-interconnect, and the rest are Q22/Q22 serpentine (the 11/23-plus backplanes are different). When I replied to your earlier email I assumed you just gave the order of the boards, not the layout. The layout should be (reverse the positions of CPU and memory if you wish): ---------KDJ11-B-CPU--------- ---------MSV11-memory-------- ------------RLV12------------ ----RQDX3---- ----TQK50---- empty ----DEQNA---- I'm guessing you have a single memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551), and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad board) rather than an RLV11 (two quad boards) -- if not, that makes a difference to the layout. I'm also guessing at a DEQNA (M7504) rather than any other Ethernet controller, but it makes no difference to the placement, so long as it's a dual-height board. If you added another dual-height board it would go under the RQDX3 (M7555), the next would go under that, and the next under the DELQA, etc. The arrangement of the slots after the first three is called "serpentine" or occasionally "zig-zag". > on the back there > is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the > cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass > the number too). All the KDJ11-B processors, whether 11/73 or 11/83, use the same printed circuit board and module number. There were some differences about whether an FPU could be fitted (due to an error on the original boards); those that would not take an FPU were only sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks. Others with 15MHz clocks were sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not fitted). There are also some with 18MHz clocks, these were sold as KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher. Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher suffix. Early 11/73 are 15MHz. Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx suffix actually refers to the EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or the FPU. The *only* difference between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is the firmware in the EPROMs. However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. All of the KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory. Beware, not all quad memory boards are PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and bigger ones that I can think of are. > do all 11/83 use PMI ? Yes. They will work with QBus memory instead (and if you put a PMI board after the processor instead of before it, it will run as normal QBus memory) but then what you have is effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83. > but the memory seems to work, or has > the cpu board some memory on it? No, there's no memory on the CPU board, but the memory you have is running as QBus memory. > when i picked up the box they booted it, i > suppose this configuration was the > way they used it there and should have > worked. > the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable > wich goes to a small board (wich > was hanging on the backside) and a small > frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was > hanging on it. Literally "hanging"? Not fixed to the front of the BA23? Is this actually a floor-standing (or possibly rack-mounting) BA23 with space for a TK50 and a drive unit, or a rackmount BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for drives? > it looks like > > ************* > * *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a batch?) > * O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose) > * *'''''* > ************* > * X B * X = run on/off ?(green led) B = reset ? > * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 0 ? > * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 1 ? > ************* > X is a switch with led B is a button with led > i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel Neither have I. DEC used pushbuttons for the disk controls on microPDP-11 panels. Each section is separate, though; it sounds like someone has replaced the pushbuttons or used third-party sub-panels. The round hole (if this is an original DEC panel) is for the badge that says whether it's a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73, microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc. The rectangular hole is for the power switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lothar.felten at gmx.net Sun Jan 20 11:05:31 2002 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 02:05:31 +0100 Subject: AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: hi there! hi pete! > If I were to be really picky, I'd > say you meant microPDP-11/23. 11/23-plus > would mean a BA11-S enclosure with > a different type of backplane :-) mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and as deep as the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces 1983-84" shows some pictures of boxes: is might be the BA11-S > > The backplane itself has a > model number; for a BA23 it should > be H9728-A. > on the backplane i found H9276-A. i don´t know what -A means, but it should be a Q22/CD so no serpentine? > > > I'm guessing you have a single > memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551), > and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad > board) rather than an RLV11 (two > quad boards) > -- if not, that makes a difference > to the layout. I'm also guessing at a > DEQNA (M7504) rather than any > other Ethernet controller, but it makes no > difference to the placement, so > long as it's a dual-height board. > now i´ve got the numbers here: CPU: M8190-AE KDJ11-B MEM: M7551-CC MSVC11-QC RL02: M8061 DELQA: M7516 RQDX3: M7555 DEQNA: M7546 > There were some differences about whether > an FPU could be fitted (due to an > error on the original boards); those that > would not take an FPU were only > sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks. > Others with 15MHz clocks were > sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not > fitted). There are also some with > 18MHz clocks, these were sold as > KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher. > Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher > suffix. Early 11/73 are 15MHz. > Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx > suffix actually refers to the > EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or > the FPU. The *only* difference > between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is > the firmware in the EPROMs. hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have AE can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what does the fpu look like? > > However, the biggest difference > between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the > memory is used as QBus memory, or > PMI memory, which is faster. All of the > KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory. > Beware, not all quad memory boards are > PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and > bigger ones that I can think of are. so i should put in first memory then cpu. > > > do all 11/83 use PMI ? > > Yes. They will work with QBus > memory instead (and if you put a PMI board > after the processor instead of > before it, it will run as normal QBus > memory) > but then what you have is > effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83. > > > Literally "hanging"? Not fixed to > the front of the BA23? Is this actually > a floor-standing (or possibly > rack-mounting) BA23 with space for > a TK50 and > a drive unit, or a rackmount > BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for > drives? well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now. the panel and the pcb wich connects to the two disks were literally "hanging" when i got the box, it was a pdp-cabinet and a second 19inch rack, containig old, unused stuff and the tk50 and those 2 disks there is a separate power supply for the disks now the tk50 and the disks are on a separate table > > Neither have I. DEC used > pushbuttons for the disk controls > on microPDP-11 > panels. Each section is separate, > though; it sounds like someone has > replaced the pushbuttons or used > third-party sub-panels. The round hole > (if this is an original DEC panel) it´s a original dec panel and dec pcb. > is for the badge that says whether it's > a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73, > microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc. The > rectangular hole is for the power > switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet. i suppose they changed CPU and memory from the pdp11/23plus and put in half a 11/83. the 3 switches at the frontbezel of the BA11 work, the other "front"panel at the back (from a 11/83) is only used to put the disks online and write protect them. this would also explain why there is a connector "hanging" at the rear-frontpanel. a weird pdp. --lothar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 20 07:35:00 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:35:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Jan, lothar felten wrote: > well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so > enclosure and backplane should be > the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). backplane should > be Q22/CD configuration, Only the first 3 slots are Q/CD. The other 5 slots are Q/Q in serpentine bus grant wiring. Tony said that the memory should be in the first slot. So I would recommend you should order your cards like this: A/B Slot | C/D Slot *memory (quad)--------------------|----------------------------------> *cpu (quad)-----------------------|----------------------------------> *controller for TK50 (double)---->|*empty----------------------------> *network controller (double)----->|*controller for RD54 disks (double) *controller for RL02 disks (quad)-|----------------------------------> > i´ll open the box and look for the 501- > number to be sure. 501-? This is no Sun. ;-) > on the back there is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. AFAIK some 11/73 labeld boxen where sold with a 11/83 CPU in the first slot and the memory in the second. In this way the CPU can not use PMI memory and accesses the memory via the QBus. That is much slower then PMI. You can convert this "fake" 11/73 to a 11/83 by swaping CPU and memory cards. > cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass > the number too). Look for the Mxxxx number. It should be M8190 = KDJ11-B according to the field-guide. > do all 11/83 use PMI ? AFAIK a 11/83 CPU can use QBus and (or?) PMI memory. If it is configured with QBus memory it is calld a "11/73". But keep in mind that there is a "real" 11/73 CPU (M8192 = KDJ11-A). See above... > the memory seems to work, or has > the cpu board some memory on it? According to the field-guide not. > when i picked up the box they booted it, i > suppose this configuration was the > way they used it there and should have > worked. Hmm. Are there Q/CD only BA23 backplanes? > ************* > * *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a batch?) > * O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose) > * *'''''* Yes. Yes. > ************* > * X B * X = run on/off ?(green led) > B = reset ? > * X X * X = write protect(red led) X > = online(green led) for disk 0 ? > * X X * X = write protect(red led) X > = online(green led) for disk 1 ? > ************* > X is a switch with led B is a button with led I never saw a front panel like that, but your assumption sounds right. All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online switch. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sun Jan 20 20:52:38 2002 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:52:38 +0000 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) In-Reply-To: <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: In message <20020119112351.F60575 at wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes >On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Jonathan Engdahl: >> >> Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, >>and ANSI >> compliant. >> Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems that we play with?. regards Robin >> lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX >> environment. > >It also has the advantage that there's a good book about it describing >exactly how it works: "A retargetable C compiler: Design and >implementation" by Christopher Fraser and David Hanson >(Benjamin/Cummings, 1995, ISBN 0-8053-1670-1). > >Greg >-- >Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >_______________________________________________ >PUPS mailing list >PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org >http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 20 21:44:54 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:44:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200201201144.g0KBisL03369@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has a > model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A. "H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says "H9278-A". Lothar: If you wane look at the number and you have a BA23, you have to remove the tin plate on top of the QBus card cage. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jan 21 00:38:48 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:38:48 -0700 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <3C4AD678.17C5AF5@ecubics.com> Robin Birch wrote: > > >> > >> Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, > >>and ANSI > >> compliant. > >> > Where can it be found Please have a look at : http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/lcc/ > and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems > that we play with?. The copyright is with Addison-Wesley. However, few companies bought the right to use it. No idea about the price, and whom to ask at Addison-Wesley ... cheers From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 21 00:57:31 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:57:31 GMT Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 22:35) References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 19, 22:35, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Only the first 3 slots are Q/CD. The other 5 slots are Q/Q in serpentine > bus grant wiring. Tony said that the memory should be in the first > slot. Lothar later said this is an H9276-A. That's a straight backplane, all Q22/CD. It seems he has a BA11-S not a BA23 :-) BTW, DEC normally recommended all comms and network cards go after the memory, tapes next, then disks. > AFAIK some 11/73 labeld boxen where sold with a 11/83 CPU in the first > slot and the memory in the second. It's the order of the boards (and the boot ROMs) that make it 11/73 or 11/83, not the circuit board. Though original 11/73s are 15MHz and original 11/83s are 18MHz. > AFAIK a 11/83 CPU can use QBus and (or?) PMI memory. If it is > configured with QBus memory it is calld a "11/73". But keep in mind > that there is a "real" 11/73 CPU (M8192 = KDJ11-A). That's a dual-height board, CPU only, with no boot ROMs, LTC, or SLUs. It was only sold as an OEM product or as an upgrade to 11/03 or 11/23 (not 11/23+ or microPDP-11/23) systems. Whilst it is a "real 11/73", it's no more "real" than any other :-) > Hmm. Are there Q/CD only BA23 backplanes? No. There are straight Q/CD and serpentine Q/Q backplanes of the same size but they're only used in other boxes (like BA11-N and BA11-S) or sold as OEM units. > I never saw a front panel like that, but your assumption sounds right. > All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online switch. The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an RX50, but the BA123 (which uses the same panels) was rated for up to 4 MSCP devices. That's why the WP and ONLINE switches and LEDs are on a subassembly, so you can add another one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 21 00:57:33 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:57:33 GMT Subject: AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" "AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20, 2:05) References: Message-ID: <10201201457.ZM10598@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 20, 2:05, lothar felten wrote: > mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and > as deep as > the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces > 1983-84" shows > some pictures of boxes: is might be the > BA11-S Sounds like you have what was a standard PDP-11/23 (or maybe 11/23+) system in an office-type cabinet (H9642 or equivalent), with an RL02 in the top, a stiffener panel, BA11-N or BA11-S box, a second RL02, and two blanking plates at the bottom. Sometimes people moved the second RL02 down 3U and put one blanking plate or an expansion box between the BA11 and the RL02. As far as I remember, the only significant difference between a BA11-N and a BA11-S is an uprated power supply, and a 22-bit backplane instead of an 18-bit one (but you can upgrade the 18-bit ones). > on the backplane i found H9276-A. > i don´t know what -A means, but it should be > a Q22/CD > so no serpentine? Correct. There is a very similar backplane H9275-A which is all serpentine, but not in a standard 11/23 box, as far as I remember. H9276-A is for a BA11-S. BA11-N uses H9273. > now i´ve got the numbers here: > CPU: M8190-AE KDJ11-B > MEM: M7551-CC MSVC11-QC > RL02: M8061 > DELQA: M7516 > RQDX3: M7555 > DEQNA: M7546 OK. That should be fine, so long as there are no gaps in the A/B slots (left side of backplane as you look into it from the back of the machine) between the cards. The original 11/23+ probably had an RQDX1 or RQDX2, and possibly an RLV11, and certainly different memory. > hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have > AE can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what > does the fpu look like? The -AE means it's a later board, should be 18MHz, and should not only be FPU-capable, it should actually have the FPJ-11 chip on it. -AD is the same thing without the FPJ-11 fitted (it still does floating point ops, just more slowly). If not, you'll probably find it easier to get a replacement board with an FPU already on it, rather than get the FPU chip on it's own. > > However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether > > memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. the > > so i should put in first memory then cpu. To get the best performance, yes. It won't double the speed, or anything like that, but it will go a bit faster. > well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now. If it's an H9276 backplane and H7861 PSU, yes. > a weird pdp. Not quite factory-standard :-) But none the less good. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 21 01:01:41 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:01:41 GMT Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20, 12:44) References: <200201201144.g0KBisL03369@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10201201501.ZM10636@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 20, 12:44, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has > >a model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A. > "H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says > "H9278-A". Typo. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Mon Jan 21 01:24:53 2002 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:24:53 -0500 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) Message-ID: <200201201525.BAA04276@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> lcc is not public-domain nor GPL, but it is freely available for `personal research and instructional use,' and in general there is no restriction as long as you don't redistribute it for profit or resell it. Here's the official scoop, as inscribed in ./CPYRIGHT in the lcc 3.6 distribution. It is possible that the terms have changed for newer versions; I haven't been keeping track. ---- The authors of this software are Christopher W. Fraser and David R. Hanson. Copyright (c) 1991,1992,1993,1994,1995 by AT&T, Christopher W. Fraser, and David R. Hanson. All Rights Reserved. Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any purpose, subject to the provisions described below, without fee is hereby granted, provided that this entire notice is included in all copies of any software that is or includes a copy or modification of this software and in all copies of the supporting documentation for such software. THIS SOFTWARE IS BEING PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY. IN PARTICULAR, NEITHER THE AUTHORS NOR AT&T MAKE ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND CONCERNING THE MERCHANTABILITY OF THIS SOFTWARE OR ITS FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE. lcc is not public-domain software, shareware, and it is not protected by a `copyleft' agreement, like the code from the Free Software Foundation. lcc is available free for your personal research and instructional use under the `fair use' provisions of the copyright law. You may, however, redistribute lcc in whole or in part provided you acknowledge its source and include this CPYRIGHT file. You may, for example, include the distribution in a CDROM of free software, provided you charge only for the media, or mirror the distribution files at your site. You may not sell lcc or any product derived from it in which it is a significant part of the value of the product. Using the lcc front end to build a C syntax checker is an example of this kind of product. You may use parts of lcc in products as long as you charge for only those components that are entirely your own and you acknowledge the use of lcc clearly in all product documentation and distribution media. You must state clearly that your product uses or is based on parts of lcc and that lcc is available free of charge. You must also request that bug reports on your product be reported to you. Using the lcc front end to build a C compiler for the Motorola 88000 chip and charging for and distributing only the 88000 code generator is an example of this kind of product. Using parts of lcc in other products is more problematic. For example, using parts of lcc in a C++ compiler could save substantial time and effort and therefore contribute significantly to the profitability of the product. This kind of use, or any use where others stand to make a profit from what is primarily our work, requires a license agreement with Addison-Wesley. Per-copy and unlimited use licenses are available; for more information, contact J. Carter Shanklin Addison Wesley Longman, Inc. 2725 Sand Hill Rd. Menlo Park, CA 94025 415/854-0300 x2478 FAX: 415/614-2930 jcs at aw.com ----- Chris Fraser / cwfraser at microsoft.com David Hanson / drh at cs.princeton.edu $Revision: 1.3 $ $Date: 1996/09/30 13:55:00 $ From bill at cs.scranton.edu Mon Jan 21 01:47:11 2002 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:47:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) In-Reply-To: <3C4AD678.17C5AF5@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20020120104102.Y97037-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > Please have a look at : > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/lcc/ > > > and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems > > that we play with?. > > The copyright is with Addison-Wesley. However, few companies bought the > right > to use it. No idea about the price, and whom to ask at Addison-Wesley > ... > And one other note. I had the department secretary request a copy of the book for me back before Christmas. They said it would ship around 2 January. When it hadn't shown up by the middle of the month I asked her to check with our book rep again. This time they told her it was out of print and there was no idea when or even if it would be printed again. :-( On another note, as long as we're talking compilers and PDP's, one of profs here was cleaning his office and found documentation for WATBOL on the PDP-11. This reminded me that Waterloo had done a lot of things for older systems like the PDP. I wonder what the chances are someone there could be found who would be willing/able to release this older stuff under something like the BSD license so it could be used for other projects?? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jan 21 02:07:44 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:07:44 -0700 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) References: <20020120104102.Y97037-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Message-ID: <3C4AEB50.D6763651@ecubics.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > > And one other note. I had the department secretary request a copy of > the book for me back before Christmas. They said it would ship around > 2 January. When it hadn't shown up by the middle of the month I asked > her to check with our book rep again. This time they told her it was > out of print and there was no idea when or even if it would be printed > again. :-( Strange ... Most of the bookstores seem to have it in stock. Just click on the link with the "bestbookbuys" And on a different note, the book is very good in explaining how it could work. But it is describing the version 3.6 of the compiler, so you have to go through all the sources of 4.1 anyway, because of all changes . And you don't touch the book anymore ;-) cheers & have fun From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 21 03:45:41 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:45:41 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:57:31 CET References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20020120184541.A50971@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.01.20 15:57 Pete Turnbull wrote: > Lothar later said this is an H9276-A. That's a straight backplane, > all Q22/CD. It seems he has a BA11-S not a BA23 :-) Aha. OK. That is a different story. > BTW, DEC normally recommended all comms and network cards go after the > memory, tapes next, then disks. I usualy put comms after the CPU, then network, tape (or tape, network, what fits best for the wiring) and disks last. > It's the order of the boards (and the boot ROMs) that make it 11/73 or > 11/83, not the circuit board. Though original 11/73s are 15MHz and > original 11/83s are 18MHz. [...] > That's a dual-height board, CPU only, with no boot ROMs, LTC, or SLUs. > It was only sold as an OEM product or as an upgrade to 11/03 or 11/23 Ahhhhh! My PDP 11 has this M8192 board with FPU but without ROMs... I thought that this is the "original" 11/73 CPU. But on this PDP is nothing "original". The BA23 was a MV II, the CPU was EPayed, the RAM board was given to me by a friend. (Many PC/XTs had to donate there RAM chips to fill it.) I found the console SLU at the scrap yard, the Dilog ESDI controller was EPayd (in England BTW ;-) ) ... and I am still looking for a ROM card... But I will get a /83 CPU card with ROMs in a few months... > > All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online > switch. > The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an RX50, I know. I once saw a MV II with a second RD54 in an external case. There was a real mess of wiring to get it and the internal RD54 work together on one RQDX3. Puting the TK50 out of the BA23 and mounting the second RD54 in the BA23 would have been much simpler. But not the DEC way of live. ;-) > the BA123 (which uses the same panels) was rated for up to 4 MSCP > devices. > That's why the WP and ONLINE switches and LEDs are on a subassembly, > so you can add another one. I know. My MV III lives in a BA123. (With 4 ESDI disks, TK50 and floppy.) -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 21 04:31:24 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:31:24 GMT Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20, 18:45) References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20020120184541.A50971@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10201201831.ZM10867@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 20, 18:45, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Ahhhhh! My PDP 11 has this M8192 board with FPU but without ROMs... > I thought that this is the "original" 11/73 CPU. But on this PDP is > nothing "original". The BA23 was a MV II, the CPU was EPayed, the RAM > board was given to me by a friend. (Many PC/XTs had to donate there RAM > chips to fill it.) About the best use I can think of for a PC/XT :-) > I found the console SLU at the scrap yard, the Dilog > ESDI controller was EPayd (in England BTW ;-) ) ... and I am still > looking for a ROM card... If you can find an MRV11-D (to put MXV11-B ROMs into) or an MVX11-B, that would be the best option (and the only ones DEC supported). However, it should be possible to put the code from MXV11-B ROMs into several 24-pin 2Kx8 EPROMs (2716 or equivalent), and put the EPROMs into a BDV11. However, you'd want to modify the BDV11 for 22-bit operation (that's ECO 005). > > The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an > RX50, > I know. I once saw a MV II with a second RD54 in an external case. There > was a real mess of wiring to get it and the internal RD54 work together > on one RQDX3. Puting the TK50 out of the BA23 and mounting the second > RD54 in the BA23 would have been much simpler. But not the DEC way of > live. ;-) Because old hard drives take a lot of current. The PSU and wiring loom won't take a full backplane and two hard drives. I did one of mine a different way. I have a BA11-N with the backplane modified to be 22-bit. In it is an RQDX2 (or an RQDX3, depending on what's been shuffled around this month), with a 50-way ribbon cable going to a DEC box (used to be a TKZ50) which has a PSU, a hard drive, and an RX50. In the box is also a small PCB I made to do the job of the distribution board found in a BA123. Also in the BA11-N backplane is a modified BDV11, with a pair of 28-pin EPROM sockets which normally hold microPDP-11/23 boot ROMs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From grog at lemis.com Mon Jan 21 10:24:23 2002 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:54:23 +1030 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) In-Reply-To: References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20020121105423.B4262@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Sunday, 20 January 2002 at 10:52:38 +0000, Robin Birch wrote: > In message <20020119112351.F60575 at wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes >> On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca> wrote: >>> Jonathan Engdahl: >>> >>> Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, >>> and ANSI >>> compliant. > > Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems > that we play with?. It's in the FreeBSD Ports Collection as /usr/ports/lang/lcc, but it's still version 3.6; if you update it for more recent versions, let me know and I'll commit it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Mon Jan 21 12:22:14 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:22:14 -0500 Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC) References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <005001c1a234$4b5befc0$48e11840@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > >> Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, > >>and ANSI > >> compliant. > >> > Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems > that we play with?. About 10 years ago I used version 3 something and wrote a code generator for a Transputer-like CPU on a chip that we did. I wrote the author just to clarify, and he said that using their compiler to generate code for our chip was fair use, as long as I wasn't selling their code. I never took a compiler course, but it wasn't that hard to understand what was going on. I didn't have the book either. I considered gcc first, but I never did figure it out. In version three, the front end hands the code generator some trees, and the code generator walks the trees and spits out code. For a limited-stack machine similar to the Transputer, it was easy, except I had to totally redo register allocation. The front end for version 3 was very good. I recall I only had to change two or three things in it. My conclusion is that you have to be a compiler expert to write a code generator for gcc. Any competent programmer could do it for lcc. I think the new version has a code generator generator. Doing an lcc code generator for the PDP-11 is on my "someday" list. One thing that you could to do to make it fit on the PDP-11 is break it up into preprocessor, front-end, and code generator programs. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl at safeaccess.com "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Thu Jan 24 10:25:33 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:25:33 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license Message-ID: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> All, Amazing news. I have been negotiating with Caldera to release the Ancient UNIX under a BSD-style license. Well, they got it done faster than I expected. See attached license. I'll start removing the username/password stuff on the Unix Archive soon. Warren -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ancient-source.pdf Type: application/binary Size: 12298 bytes Desc: ancient-source.pdf URL: From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Thu Jan 24 14:51:39 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:51:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Unix Archive now available anonymously Message-ID: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> All, With the new Caldera license, the Unix Archive is now available to you anonymously. You can throw away those passwords now. The list of Archive mirrors is at: http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html and if you can become a mirror, please read http://www.tuhs.org/mirroring.html and send me some e-mail when you are ready to be added to the list. I can tell you that up to now, 2,830 people obtained a SCO Ancient UNIX license, of which 250 had to pay the US$100 to get it. I'll turn off the CGI script which allows you to obtain a SCO license now .... You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available now :) Cheers, Warren From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Fri Jan 25 00:13:05 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500 Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com> That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous contribution. Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA http://users.safeacess.com/engdahl jrengdahl at safeaccess.com From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Fri Jan 25 00:17:40 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:17:40 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <23C0CD62-10D1-11D6-A66D-000502F91E77@uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Jan 24, 2002 07:49:08 am" Message-ID: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Milo Velimirovic: > Warren, > The license didn't survive the digestification process on the list -- > Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the ancient-source.pdf > directly or a URL to it? > > Thanks, > Milo Here it is, Warren http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf From bill at cs.scranton.edu Fri Jan 25 01:13:02 2002 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:13:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Warren, being as you have already answered my question regarding how this effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question. Does this require that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source files before they can be released anywhere?? For example, if I put up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to work with them?? Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message, I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002....... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net Fri Jan 25 01:29:06 2002 From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:29:06 -0800 Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3C502842.3090200@pacbell.net> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: >That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous >contribution. > >Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you. > In addition to Bill, a large debt of gratitude is also owed to Dion Johnson, formerly of SCO, now of Caldera. Dion was the driving force at SCO behind the original release of the "Ancient UNIX" source code and this final milestone was almost entirely his doing as well. I don't believe that he subscribes to either of these lists and, even if he does, he is far too modest to take the credit for all of the time and energy that he has put into this project behind the scenes, but I want to make sure that it does not go unrecognized. If any of you want to send a note of thanks to him personally, his email address is: dionj at caldera.com From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net Fri Jan 25 01:43:37 2002 From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:43:37 -0800 Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license References: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Message-ID: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >Warren, > being as you have already answered my question regarding how this >effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question. Does this require >that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source >files before they can be released anywhere?? For example, if I put >up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files >need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to >work with them?? Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message, >I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002....... > While I am not a lawyer, and don't speak officially for Caldera on this, I know that the intent of this was not to require the addition or changing of any copyright notices in the files themselves. Strictly speaking, the actual copyright ownership hasn't really changed. The copyright was owned by Caldera and it still is. The actual copyright notices which may appear in various parts of the source code are historic and haven't reflected the current ownership of the code for years - nor do they need to. (I believe that from a strict legal standpoint the actual copyright notice in the code is essentially irrelevant) What has changed is the license under which it may be used. I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that either come directly from or are derived from any of the listed operating systems. From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Fri Jan 25 08:05:31 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:05:31 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> from Michael Davidson at "Jan 24, 2002 07:43:37 am" Message-ID: <200201242205.g0OM5V212564@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Michael Davidson: > I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license > / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that > either come directly from or are derived from > any of the listed operating systems. I believe that's all we need to do. I'm only going to have 1 copy of the license agreement in the Unix Archive, with the odd pointer to it in some of the READMEs. Warren From perry at wasabisystems.com Fri Jan 25 09:12:38 2002 From: perry at wasabisystems.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:12:38 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously In-Reply-To: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Warren Toomey writes: > You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available > now :) Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from 32V per se. It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this rectified by the UCB people shortly. -- Perry E. Metzger perry at wasabisystems.com -- NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ From lothar.felten at gmx.net Sat Jan 26 22:50:49 2002 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:50:49 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm Message-ID: about the pdp-11/83: swapping cpu and memoryboard does work, but the performance stays the same: none, because i still don´t have any system by now. there is a small difference: the run led stays off all the time, but the system ODT works fine. i suppose this is a problem of passing the signals, but this is only a vague guess. when i boot the TK50 2.11BSD tape, i can get the disklabel program loaded. it asks: Disk? when i try to access the disks, the system hangs. when i access rl(0,0) (RL02 disk drive0) the system just hangs, no response. when i access ra(0,0) (RD54 disk drive0) i get a "menu": d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)? i can enter D, then it should write the defaults to the disk. after this i get: d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)? i enter d (to see what the program did), and i get: type:MSCP disk:RD54 flags: bytes/sector:512 sectors/track:17 tr (it stops right after tr) i suppose the program is asking the controller about drive parameters, and that´s where it fails. i can wait for hours, i´ll get no response. i can use all the menu, except d=display. i thought that maybe one of the controlles is broken and causes trouble on the qbus (maybe the RL02 controller). is there a way to check all this stuff? i do have some "winchester" controllers for PC/ISA, i could check the disks on a linux pc, no problem, but i don´t want to overwrite something "digital"-specific that i could not restore. those RD54-disks are regular ST506-mfm, right? maybe i should "downsize" the system to the basic elements i need to get it running maybe there really is a bus problem. i´d try this configuration: mem - cpu - rqdx3 - tqk50 (top-bottom) would this be ok? or, instead of using RD54 disks, should i try to use the rl02 as "pair" (one swap, one systemdisk)? i think step by step checking the hardware is the only thing i can do to get the pdp up and running. have a nice weekend -- lothar btw: does anyone know a good book/link about system-architecture, specially harvard- architecture ? From michi at michiw.org Mon Jan 28 04:03:24 2002 From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:03:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver Message-ID: Hi there, I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the vtserver software. When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output. When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem. I've set the serial line characteristics to: Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with stty, but still no success...) Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work. After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes into an endless loop. So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here? Thanks in advance - Michi From lothar.felten at gmx.net Mon Jan 28 08:42:44 2002 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:42:44 +0100 Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel Message-ID: the pdp is running 2.11BSD ! the disk has now got a valid disklabel, i got it on the disk by setting all diskparameters without using d (display) and wrote it. after this i could use the display option. installation was no problem, but still i have some questions: my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only get ^H. i tried the terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no difference. i have some dec boards labeled M7513 does anyone know what this is? i found: M7513 - RQD - RQDXE Q BUS drive interface extension module it is a double height card and it has 3 50pin connectors. the RQDX3 has another connector, i suppose for RX50 floppydrive. can i hook up a 5,25" pc drive? maybe with modifications? --lothar From michi at michiw.org Sun Jan 27 02:38:39 2002 From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:38:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver Message-ID: Hi there, I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the vtserver software. When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output. When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem. I've set the serial line characteristics to: Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with stty, but still no success...) Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work. After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes into an endless loop. So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here? Thanks in advance - Michi From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 27 03:39:42 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:39:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 26 Jan, lothar felten wrote: > i do have some "winchester" controllers for > PC/ISA, i could check the disks on > a linux pc, no problem, but i don´t want to > overwrite something "digital"-specific > that i could not restore. those RD54-disks > are regular ST506-mfm, right? Do not use RDxx disks in a PeeCee! You will damage the RQDX format and the disks will be unusable on the RQDX. If you destroyed the RQDX format you have to get a VAXstation 2000 to reformat the disks, or you have to get XXDP onto your PDP 11 to do the job. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From kdavis at ndx.net Tue Jan 29 15:10:09 2002 From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:10:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51795.216.103.73.141.1012281009.squirrel@bender.ndx.net> Hmm, tricky. If you send me the 11/40, I'll have look for you :-) Kirk > Hi there, > > I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax > 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the > vtserver software. > When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded > correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver > documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and > some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any > output. > > When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem. > I've set the serial line characteristics to: > Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/ CTS flow > control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with > stty, but still no success...) > Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on > and off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work. > After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU > goes into an endless loop. > > So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here? > > Thanks in advance - Michi > > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups From P.M.Williams at sheffield.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 01:22:35 2002 From: P.M.Williams at sheffield.ac.uk (P.M.Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:22:35 -0000 Subject: [pups] PDP 11/04 Message-ID: I'm looking for someone in the UK that may have spares for a PDP- 11-04 (KY11-LA). This computer is still in daily use in the University of Sheffield but currently has some problems with the power regulator (H777) Any help would be greatly appreciated. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 30 02:38:49 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:38:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Michael Werner wrote: > Hi there, > > I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax > 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the > vtserver software. > When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded > correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver > documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and > some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output. Aha! So the first file gets transferred correctly? Then your problem is totally withing that transferred file. My guess is that it don't know your hardware well enough. Does your machine have EIS? Does the code expect EIS to exist? How about 22-bit mode? I/D space? FP perhaps? There are a lot of potential problems... > When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem. So? If you even manage to get the first file accress, the problem isn't anything with your communication link. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 07:38:43 2002 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:38:43 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm In-Reply-To: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>; from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:39:42PM +0100 References: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020128223843.B35499@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:39:42PM +0100, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 26 Jan, lothar felten wrote: > > > i do have some "winchester" controllers for > > PC/ISA, i could check the disks on > > a linux pc, no problem, but i donŽt want to > > overwrite something "digital"-specific > > that i could not restore. those RD54-disks > > are regular ST506-mfm, right? > Do not use RDxx disks in a PeeCee! You will damage the RQDX format and > the disks will be unusable on the RQDX. If you destroyed the RQDX > format you have to get a VAXstation 2000 to reformat the disks, or you > have to get XXDP onto your PDP 11 to do the job. I think MDM can also do it for you on a mVAX with RQDX3 -- | / o / /_ _ email: wilko at FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, the Netherlands From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jan 30 04:34:12 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:34:12 -0700 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm References: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20020128223843.B35499@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3C56EB24.9DE9244C@ecubics.com> Wilko Bulte wrote: > > I think MDM can also do it for you on a mVAX with RQDX3 Common error ;-) MDM can only deal with a pefect formatted HD drive, which has no new bad blocks since the last format. Otherwise, see the hints about the MV2000 & pdp11 ;-) cheers From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jan 30 13:13:15 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:13:15 GMT Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" "[pups] solution for the disklabel" (Jan 27, 23:42) References: Message-ID: <10201300313.ZM20610@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote: > installation was no problem, but still i > have some questions: > my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only > get ^H. i tried the > terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no > difference. Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H, shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h'). > i have some dec boards labeled M7513 > does anyone know what this > is? i found: > M7513 - RQD - RQDXE Q BUS drive > interface extension module That's exactly what it is. The BA23 box only supports one hard drive; the RQDXE is an adaptor for an RXDX2 or RXDX3 to permit use of additional drives with a distribution board in a second enclosure. One of the 50-pin connectors goes to the RQDX3, one to the distribution board in the BA23, and the third to a connector kit on the rear panel of the BA23. There's a different version for an RQDX1, called an RQDX1E. > the RQDX3 has another connector, i > suppose for RX50 floppydrive. An RQDX3 has only one connector, the 50-pin one to go to the distribution board. Are you looking at the right thing? Are you looking at a distribution board? That does have a 34-way connector for a floppy. > can i hook up a 5,25" pc drive? maybe > with modifications? Not an ordinary PC floppy, no. A TEAC FD55GFR is an 80-track double-sided drive (not HD, though) that will work as an RX33. Some other 80-track 5.25" drives may work, if you set the jumpers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au Wed Jan 30 13:20:38 2002 From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:20:38 +1100 (EST) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver Message-ID: <200201300320.OAA20792@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> As I and other people mentioned in previous postings, it's likely that your 11/40 is missing memory management or EIS cpu options. In case the legend is missing from your system box (not uncommon), I have updated my web page :- http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html to show board numbers and locations From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Tue Jan 29 08:08:32 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:08:32 +1000 (EST) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver In-Reply-To: from Michael Werner at "Jan 26, 2002 05:38:39 pm" Message-ID: <200201282208.g0SM8Xw97848@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Michael Werner: > I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax > 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the > vtserver software. > When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded > correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver > documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and > some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output. > So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here? > Thanks in advance - Michi I've passed the baton of Vtserver development over to Fred van Kempen. However, which version of Vtserver are you using? Cheers, Warren From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 29 08:53:42 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:53:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Michael Werner wrote: > Hi there, > > I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax > 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the > vtserver software. > When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded > correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver > documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and > some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output. > > When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem. Okay. If it isn't a problem when you do it by hand it shouldn't be a problem in the program either. > I've set the serial line characteristics to: > Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow > control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with > stty, but still no success...) > Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and > off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work. > After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes > into an endless loop. > > So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here? Got the source code for that bootstrap? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au Tue Jan 29 09:11:46 2002 From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:11:46 +1100 (EST) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver Message-ID: <200201282311.KAA03402@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> > I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax > 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the > vtserver software. 2.11BSD won't work on a PDP11/40, although 2.9BSD should. If the secondary boot loaded, you should get a prompt '40Boot' for your processor. You haven't said how much memory you have. Also, the 11/40 has several cpu options, and the memory management and line time clock options are required for Unix to work. Check that there is a register at 772340. If it is not there, then the memory management options isn't installed. PS The only flow control settyings that will work is XON/XOFF. The DL style interfaces used on all PDP11 consoles, have no useful silo, and interupts for each character input or output. None of the kernels I know support the dataset signals, other than some will assert DTR on open. From michi at michiw.org Tue Jan 29 23:16:12 2002 From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:16:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Johnny, On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Johnny Billquist wrote: [...] > Got the source code for that bootstrap? Yes, I think. It's the source code included in the vtserver2.3a-20010404 package. (Warren, this is the version I'm using.) Greetings - Michi From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 30 18:28:09 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:28:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, lothar felten wrote: > the pdp is running 2.11BSD ! Good news indeed. > installation was no problem, but still i > have some questions: > my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only > get ^H. i tried the > terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no > difference. And? ^H is backspace... Are you trying to delete characters? Typical PC confusion perhaps. For some reason the PC world have decided to use backspace to delete characters... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 31 01:03:17 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:03:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel In-Reply-To: <10201300313.ZM20610@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote: > > > installation was no problem, but still i > > have some questions: > > my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only > > get ^H. i tried the > > terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no > > difference. > > Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H, > shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use > stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h'). On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jan 31 04:14:54 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:14:54 GMT Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist "Re: [pups] solution for the disklabel" (Jan 30, 16:03) References: Message-ID: <10201301814.ZM21539@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 30, 16:03, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H, > > shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use > > stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h'). > > On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He > must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but > instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way... Of course. I've spent too long using my VT420. A real VT102 has separate delete and backspace keys. Probably he's using some not-really-VT102 emulation in an xterm window or some emulator. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Wed Jan 9 08:38:53 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:38:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX-based Mallet(t) In-Reply-To: <20020108172809.M15074@iridium.mv.net> from "Mark E. Mallett" at "Jan 8, 2002 05:28:09 pm" Message-ID: <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Mark E. Mallett: > Somebody pointed me at this URL: > http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/2000-January/000152.html > > and others where the question of the UNIX-based mallet was being > discussed. It's me.. some time in the mid-80s I had submitted a > number of entries to the calendar file and I had jokingly suggested > that my birthday could also be included. And apparently it was. > > I enjoy seeing it pop up every August. I notice that some calendar > files now actually explain it, which I think is a pity :-) > -- > Mark E. Mallett | http://www.mv.com/users/mem/ > MV Communications, Inc. | http://www.mv.com/ > NH Internet Access since 1991 | (603) 629-0000 / FAX: 629-0049 I think a few people are going to be relieved to know the answer. Can you tell us which versions of the calendar file actually explain it, as I've not seen them. Thanks for this, Warren From mem at mv.mv.com Wed Jan 9 08:45:11 2002 From: mem at mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:45:11 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX-based Mallet(t) In-Reply-To: <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org>; from wkt@minnie.tuhs.org on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:38:53AM +1100 References: <20020108172809.M15074@iridium.mv.net> <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20020108174511.R15074@iridium.mv.net> On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:38:53AM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Mark E. Mallett: > > Somebody pointed me at this URL: > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/2000-January/000152.html > > > > I enjoy seeing it pop up every August. I notice that some calendar > > files now actually explain it, which I think is a pity :-) > > I think a few people are going to be relieved to know the answer. > Can you tell us which versions of the calendar file actually explain > it, as I've not seen them. The plural may have been premature-- the same somebody also sent me this URL: http://www.cybernothing.org/pub/20-past/0814 A quick google search doesn't immediately turn up others, so maybe it's just that one. -mm- From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Thu Jan 24 10:25:33 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:25:33 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license Message-ID: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> All, Amazing news. I have been negotiating with Caldera to release the Ancient UNIX under a BSD-style license. Well, they got it done faster than I expected. See attached license. I'll start removing the username/password stuff on the Unix Archive soon. Warren -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ancient-source.pdf Type: application/binary Size: 12298 bytes Desc: ancient-source.pdf URL: From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Thu Jan 24 14:51:39 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:51:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously Message-ID: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> All, With the new Caldera license, the Unix Archive is now available to you anonymously. You can throw away those passwords now. The list of Archive mirrors is at: http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html and if you can become a mirror, please read http://www.tuhs.org/mirroring.html and send me some e-mail when you are ready to be added to the list. I can tell you that up to now, 2,830 people obtained a SCO Ancient UNIX license, of which 250 had to pay the US$100 to get it. I'll turn off the CGI script which allows you to obtain a SCO license now .... You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available now :) Cheers, Warren From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Fri Jan 25 00:13:05 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com> That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous contribution. Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA http://users.safeacess.com/engdahl jrengdahl at safeaccess.com From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Fri Jan 25 00:17:40 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:17:40 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <23C0CD62-10D1-11D6-A66D-000502F91E77@uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Jan 24, 2002 07:49:08 am" Message-ID: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Milo Velimirovic: > Warren, > The license didn't survive the digestification process on the list -- > Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the ancient-source.pdf > directly or a URL to it? > > Thanks, > Milo Here it is, Warren http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf From bill at cs.scranton.edu Fri Jan 25 01:13:02 2002 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:13:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Warren, being as you have already answered my question regarding how this effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question. Does this require that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source files before they can be released anywhere?? For example, if I put up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to work with them?? Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message, I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002....... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net Fri Jan 25 01:29:06 2002 From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:29:06 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org> <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3C502842.3090200@pacbell.net> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: >That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous >contribution. > >Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you. > In addition to Bill, a large debt of gratitude is also owed to Dion Johnson, formerly of SCO, now of Caldera. Dion was the driving force at SCO behind the original release of the "Ancient UNIX" source code and this final milestone was almost entirely his doing as well. I don't believe that he subscribes to either of these lists and, even if he does, he is far too modest to take the credit for all of the time and energy that he has put into this project behind the scenes, but I want to make sure that it does not go unrecognized. If any of you want to send a note of thanks to him personally, his email address is: dionj at caldera.com From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net Fri Jan 25 01:43:37 2002 From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:43:37 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license References: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> Message-ID: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >Warren, > being as you have already answered my question regarding how this >effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question. Does this require >that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source >files before they can be released anywhere?? For example, if I put >up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files >need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to >work with them?? Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message, >I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002....... > While I am not a lawyer, and don't speak officially for Caldera on this, I know that the intent of this was not to require the addition or changing of any copyright notices in the files themselves. Strictly speaking, the actual copyright ownership hasn't really changed. The copyright was owned by Caldera and it still is. The actual copyright notices which may appear in various parts of the source code are historic and haven't reflected the current ownership of the code for years - nor do they need to. (I believe that from a strict legal standpoint the actual copyright notice in the code is essentially irrelevant) What has changed is the license under which it may be used. I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that either come directly from or are derived from any of the listed operating systems. From becker at ab.edu Fri Jan 25 01:07:38 2002 From: becker at ab.edu (Rob Becker) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:07:38 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400 Message-ID: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of machines? One was given to me by my school (clearing out old equipment) and I would like to get some pure BSD goodness on it again. Also, anyone know if it's possible to make tapes under VMS? Thanks in advance, Rob Becker From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org Fri Jan 25 08:05:31 2002 From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:05:31 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license In-Reply-To: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> from Michael Davidson at "Jan 24, 2002 07:43:37 am" Message-ID: <200201242205.g0OM5V212564@minnie.tuhs.org> In article by Michael Davidson: > I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license > / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that > either come directly from or are derived from > any of the listed operating systems. I believe that's all we need to do. I'm only going to have 1 copy of the license agreement in the Unix Archive, with the odd pointer to it in some of the READMEs. Warren From perry at wasabisystems.com Fri Jan 25 09:12:38 2002 From: perry at wasabisystems.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:12:38 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously In-Reply-To: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Warren Toomey writes: > You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available > now :) Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from 32V per se. It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this rectified by the UCB people shortly. -- Perry E. Metzger perry at wasabisystems.com -- NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jan 25 08:47:40 2002 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 02 14:47:40 PST Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400 Message-ID: <0201242247.AA03544@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Rob Becker wrote: > Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of machines? > > [...] > > get some pure BSD goodness on it again. For VAXen you don't want 4.4BSD, you want 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, especially if you want pure. Unfortunately, I haven't got the KA640 (3300/3400) support in there, just KA650 (3500/3600) and KA655 (3800/3900). It would be trivial to add, though, it just needs to be taught to look at the SIE in addition to the SID, recognise the KA640, and don't try to touch the non-existent B-cache. This wouldn't give you support for the on-board DSSI and Ethernet, but it'll run with your Q-bus devices. MS From becker at ab.edu Fri Jan 25 04:39:50 2002 From: becker at ab.edu (Rob Becker) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:39:50 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (: Rob Becker From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 25 10:47:46 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:47:46 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400 In-Reply-To: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:07:38 CET References: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020125014746.J62193@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.01.24 16:07 Rob Becker wrote: > Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of > machines? This is the complete list of supported machines od 4.4BSD: cpu "VAX8600" cpu "VAX8200" cpu "VAX780" cpu "VAX750" cpu "VAX730" cpu "VAX630" cpu "VAX650" As you can see, you can not see a line for the KA640 CPU of the MV3400. So this machine is not supported by 4.4BSD. BTW: I am planing to do a BSD exhibition at the VCFE. I want to show: PDP 11/73 running 2.11BSD MV II running 4.3BSD-Tahoe MV III running 4.3BSD-Reno HP9000 3?? running 4.3BSD-Reno HP9000 433t, PMAX, SPARC 2 and MV3600 running 4.4BSD Maybe I can "borrow" the 11/750 of a friend to run 4.2BSD. So I am looking for binary distibutions of 4.3BSD-Reno for hp300 (AFAIK there is only a VAX version in the archive) and 4.4BSD for anything else than hp300. If there is somthing around, please let me know. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tls at rek.tjls.com Fri Jan 25 17:26:27 2002 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:26:27 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously In-Reply-To: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com> References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Message-ID: <20020125072627.GA8748@rek.tjls.com> On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 06:12:38PM -0500, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > Warren Toomey writes: > > You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available > > now :) > > Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to > be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from > 32V per se. > > It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this > rectified by the UCB people shortly. Oh, one other thing that springs to mind: I'm not sure Ultrix-32 is strictly OK to have in the archive, either; when I first tried to buy an Ultrix source license (for Ultrix 3.1 at that time, and then again for Ultrix 4.0) I was told that I needed not a 32V license, which I had, but a SVR2 license, which was basically unobtainable at that time, before DEC would sell me an Ultrix source distribution. Did someone correct this misunderstanding before Ultrix was placed in the archive? Thor From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 25 10:47:46 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:47:46 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400 In-Reply-To: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:07:38 CET References: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020125014746.J62193@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.01.24 16:07 Rob Becker wrote: > Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of > machines? This is the complete list of supported machines od 4.4BSD: cpu "VAX8600" cpu "VAX8200" cpu "VAX780" cpu "VAX750" cpu "VAX730" cpu "VAX630" cpu "VAX650" As you can see, you can not see a line for the KA640 CPU of the MV3400. So this machine is not supported by 4.4BSD. BTW: I am planing to do a BSD exhibition at the VCFE. I want to show: PDP 11/73 running 2.11BSD MV II running 4.3BSD-Tahoe MV III running 4.3BSD-Reno HP9000 3?? running 4.3BSD-Reno HP9000 433t, PMAX, SPARC 2 and MV3600 running 4.4BSD Maybe I can "borrow" the 11/750 of a friend to run 4.2BSD. So I am looking for binary distibutions of 4.3BSD-Reno for hp300 (AFAIK there is only a VAX version in the archive) and 4.4BSD for anything else than hp300. If there is somthing around, please let me know. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk Fri Jan 25 19:42:18 2002 From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:42:18 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 01:39:50PM -0500 References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Message-ID: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 01:39:50PM -0500, Rob Becker wrote: > who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (: OK I know that the comment was a joke but... Funnily enough I started looking at doing just that around 18 months ago. Unfortunately (from that point of view) it ground to a halt when wedding arrangements took priority. Anyhow the wedding is out of the way - the missus is now a computing student so I should get some sympathy from her (she likes Unix :-), so hopefully I can resurrect my notes etc and start working on it again. No promises mind as I havent touched C or assembly for around 18months now so am getting increasily rusty. Not that my x86 assembler is particulary good, or that the missus will allow me enough free time to get my head back into coding at home... So the following is what I can remember from quite a while ago... Also from what I did look at, I rapidly came to the conclusion that a "real" mode i386 port was the more straight forward as that keeps everything in 16 bits and saves a lot of mucking around. So you could either rewrite it as a process that runs as 16 bits and so use it as an app under say Linux/FreeBSD/OS/2 (I wont mention the people from Redmond :-), or as a 16 bit OS running native. Either way the first skirmishes I made with the source lead me to believe that in simple terms, the following would need to be completed: - rewrite the assembler portion to x86 - memory management/interrupt handlers/booting and initialisation etc etc - rewrite the disk driver to run the floppy drive (1.4 MB should be enough to demonstrate it works and boot a kernel etc) - the tty stuff could conceivably be pointed at COM1 and you could hang a console/teletype (for the sad) onto the back of a PC or just produce suitable keyboard/screen drivers. With any joy if the assembler level can be done correctly (device drivers aside) you could theoretically leave the bulk of the C source intact - which could possibly make it a purer port, assuming you can get gcc to compile K&R C - I havent tried yet. Anyhow comments and sarcastic remarks are welcome. Regards Paul ------------ Paul Osborne Computing Officer University of Kent at Canterbury Computing Service From imp at village.org Fri Jan 25 20:27:25 2002 From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:27:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> In message: <20020125094218.C5968 at apple.ukc.ac.uk> "P.A.Osborne" writes: : Also from what I did look at, I rapidly came to the conclusion that : a "real" mode i386 port was the more straight forward as that keeps : everything in 16 bits and saves a lot of mucking around. Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-). I've love to have a v7 port to my DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that both have an 8088. There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6) to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to be able to find a distribution anymore. : With any joy if the assembler level can be done correctly (device drivers : aside) you could theoretically leave the bulk of the C source intact - which : could possibly make it a purer port, assuming you can get gcc to compile : K&R C - I havent tried yet. gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. Warner From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk Fri Jan 25 21:16:37 2002 From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:16:37 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org>; from imp@village.org on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700 References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> Message-ID: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-). Yup, otherwise you start mucking around with the protected mode shuffle to 32 bits and I have been burnt by that before. The ix86 chips are startup from cold in 16bit mode so it makes life easier. > I've love to have a v7 port to my > DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that > both have an 8088. There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6) > to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to > be able to find a distribution anymore. Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around. > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 > days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. That makes things a challenge. Still the source of the kernel is around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life too painfull. I must be mad thinking about this again.... paul From ephrem at bensusan.net Sat Jan 26 01:19:58 2002 From: ephrem at bensusan.net (Ephrem Hugh Bensusan) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:19:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380. So I don't know how useful it might be in this context. In any case, one can find it at: http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/ -- Ephrem Hugh Bensusan EMail: ephrem at bensusan.net Phone: 352.687.3757 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT/CS d? s--:+ a C++++$ UB/L++++$ P++> L+++$ E W++(+++)$ N++> o? K++ w-- O M? V-- PS+++(--) PE Y+ PGP+ t++* 5- X++ R tv- b+++> DI-- D+ G++ e* h----(-)* r+++ y++++(+++(--)) ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, P.A.Osborne wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-). > > Yup, otherwise you start mucking around with the protected mode > shuffle to 32 bits and I have been burnt by that before. The ix86 > chips are startup from cold in 16bit mode so it makes life easier. > > > I've love to have a v7 port to my > > DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that > > both have an 8088. There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6) > > to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to > > be able to find a distribution anymore. > > Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around. > > > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 > > days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle > > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed > > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. > > That makes things a challenge. Still the source of the kernel is > around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life > too painfull. > > I must be mad thinking about this again.... > > > paul > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Jan 26 03:30:27 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:30:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020125112541.L9918-100000@kenny.subatomix.com> On Thursday, 24 Jan 2002, Rob Becker wrote: > who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (: Well, I surely wouldn't mind if people made it work on more PDP-11s than just a /45 or /70 with RP disks. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss at subatomix.com From imp at village.org Sat Jan 26 01:52:28 2002 From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:52:28 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: References: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20020125.085228.119666403.imp@village.org> In message: Ephrem Hugh Bensusan writes: : It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I : believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380. So I don't know how useful : it might be in this context. : : In any case, one can find it at: : http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/ I think this is binary only... Maybe it would make a good addition to the TUHS archive, however... Warner From djenner at earthlink.net Sat Jan 26 07:08:40 2002 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:08:40 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... References: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <20020125.085228.119666403.imp@village.org> Message-ID: <3C51C958.E1FEAF09@earthlink.net> This Venix has been available from Barry Kort and ftp.update.uu.se/professional for many years. It is "Pro/Venix" versions 1 and 2. Pro/Venix came directly from VentureCom, the vendor who ported it. More desirable is "Venix/Pro" especially version 2. Venix/Pro came from DEC, who got it from VentureCom and spiffed it up a bit for the Pro. Anyone who has or comes across floppies for Venix/Pro from DEC should really archive them (and please let me know! I have a set of floppies with one or two bad disks). Whether this is "legal" or not is up to some question. VentureCom put Pro/Venix out in the public domain, but the only "proof" of this is its widely available existence and a verbal statement from the person who first got it. At some point in the past, I think Bob Supnik thought it was reasonable that DEC would put its interests in the product in the Ancient Unix license, but he no longer works for DEC. There is also some question whether this Venix was ported from System III, which would eliminate it from the Ancient Unix license and the new form of it. Dave "M. Warner Losh" wrote: > > In message: > Ephrem Hugh Bensusan writes: > : It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I > : believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380. So I don't know how useful > : it might be in this context. > : > : In any case, one can find it at: > : http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/ > > I think this is binary only... Maybe it would make a good addition to > the TUHS archive, however... > > Warner > > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs -- David C. Jenner djenner at earthlink.net From rupp at chello.at Sat Jan 26 02:24:39 2002 From: rupp at chello.at (Wolfgang Rupp) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:24:39 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at> On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it > > was v6) to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one > > seems to be able to find a distribution anymore. > > Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around. ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix HTH Wolfgang Rupp From rupp at chello.at Sat Jan 26 02:30:34 2002 From: rupp at chello.at (Wolfgang Rupp) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:30:34 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200201251630.g0PGUZ101084@tk212017121038.teleweb.at> On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > I've love to have a v7 port to my > > DEC Rainbow 100 oops... I only read "Venix" and jumped to conclusions. Sorry. However, under /pub/rainbow there is rainbow stuff on ftp.update.uu.se too. Wolfgang Rupp From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Sat Jan 26 05:18:31 2002 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <200201251918.LAA23410@chiton.ucsd.edu> > From: "P.A.Osborne" > To: "M. Warner Losh" > Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:16:37 +0000 > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-). > > > > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 > > days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle > > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed > > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. > > That makes things a challenge. Still the source of the kernel is > around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life > too painfull. Doesn't one of the C beautifiers do that for you (rewrite =+ etc.) Either GNU indent or Berkeley? cb. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein at ucsd.edu From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jan 27 00:50:21 2002 From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:50:21 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org> > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 > days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" in the move from V6 to V7. I think structure assignments were added here too, and the much more obscure, being able to declare passed arguments in the function preamble as "register." I believe K&R reflects the C language as seen with V7... -- Ken From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Mon Jan 28 05:03:40 2002 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:03:40 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <200201271904.FAA17642@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> Ken Wellsch: I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" in the move from V6 to V7. I think structure assignments were added here too, and the much more obscure, being able to declare passed arguments in the function preamble as "register." I believe K&R reflects the C language as seen with V7... The V7 C compiler accepted =+, but it still accepted += as well; there was a lot of code written the old way, and nobody wanted to be forced to convert everything all at once. Similarly, the V7 compiler complained about implicit conversions between pointers of different types, or between ints and pointers, but they were treated as warnings, not fatal errors; you could still compile old code and just ignore the compiler's fussing. I recall that when I arrived at Bell Labs in 1984, it was apparently not long after the research group's C compiler had been changed to treat all the obsolete stuff as errors; certainly there was still code in /usr/src that hadn't been updated, and all of it had been recompiled recently to run on the VAX. A modern C compiler would choke even on some of the stuff that was legal in those days. Recently I recompiled tbl with lcc, and had a grand time cleaning out all the ideas we all thought were clever in the late 1970s but most of us would never think of doing now. For those with the virgin source handy, take a look at subroutine `point' and the way it is used and abused. Norman Wilson From grog at lemis.com Mon Jan 28 09:58:29 2002 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:28:29 +1030 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org> References: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org> Message-ID: <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Saturday, 26 January 2002 at 9:50:21 -0500, Ken Wellsch wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: >> >> gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7 >> days. =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc. There are some other subtle >> things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed >> the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's. > > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" > in the move from V6 to V7. I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From sven_dehmlow at web.de Mon Jan 28 02:10:39 2002 From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:10:39 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386 Message-ID: <02012717103901.00631@linux> Hi, The last few weeks I've thought a lot about porting Unix v6 to the PC. Here are my "results": 1. If you really want to do it, don't do it from scratch. Porting Unix 1:1 maybe the usual way but integrating your code step by step into another Unix or Unix-a-like operating system will surely become much easier as you can test the result in every stage of development. Another benefit is of course that with a little bit of luck you don't have to rewrite all the machine dependent stuff as it might already exist in the other os. If you want to do things this way ELKS (the Linux kernel subset for the 8088) might be a good candidate as it is very simple and by this very easy to understand. Also there is a big Linux/ELKS community which might help you with some problems. 2.Another question is if it is really necessary to port when so many good emulators for the PDP11 exist. Of course a ported Unix is faster than one running on a simulator but is fastness really so important in times where multi-processor machines exist that make your 1.5Ghz machine look like a fool? Also wouldn't a user who needs a professional fast Unix (or a-like) take the newest Linux or one of the BSDs instead of Unix v6? The main reason for porting is from my point of view to get access to the i86's hardware. But for reaching this aim a port isn't necessary. You can either develop the emulated machine further so that it has additional devices (and interupts, etc. for them) or you can try to give the os on the emulated machine direct access to the real machine. This may sound a little bit strange and unusual but will save much code in the emulator as you don't have to code for each device twice (one time in the emulator and one time in the os). Of course the os you're running your emulator on must give you the chance to get direct access to the real hardware, but I found a DOS port from Bob Supniks J-11 emulator so that is not a real problem. Currently I'm working on the latter idea (on the emulator which gives you direct access to the hardware), but in fact I haven't written a line of code yet as I'm still searching for the best way to integrate the interesting parts of PC's memory into PDP11's memory. The idea is to put the interesting parts of PC's memory behind PDP11's memory and to change some lines in Unix that for example malloc doesn't get the idea to give this pieces of memory away to user programs. Putting the PC's memory before the memory space of the PDP11 would as far as I can see make more changes especially in the code relevant for booting necessary. Other things like for example PC's interupts will surely make much less trouble. Suggestions, ideas, opinions, etc. are very welcome. If someone feels the urge to help me with this project it would be very kind if he would let me know ;-) BTW: if someone has patches to the v6 or ported programs it would be very kind if he would send them to me. If I get enough stuff I'll make something like a new Unix v6 distribution. Sven From imp at village.org Tue Jan 29 16:17:42 2002 From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:17:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at> References: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at> Message-ID: <20020128.231742.74361641.imp@village.org> In message: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040 at tk212017121038.teleweb.at> Wolfgang Rupp writes: : On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote: : > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > > There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it : > > was v6) to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one : > > seems to be able to find a distribution anymore. : > : > Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around. : : ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix This is not the Rainbow version, but instead the PRO version. I'd love to see the DEC Rainbow (or even the IBM PC) verions available. Warner From jonathan.naylor at ggaweb.ch Tue Jan 29 07:03:45 2002 From: jonathan.naylor at ggaweb.ch (Jonathan Naylor) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:03:45 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <02012717103901.00631@linux> References: <02012717103901.00631@linux> Message-ID: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx> Hi Sven I can't help feel that you've missed the point of wanting to port UNIX edition 6 or 7 to the PC. Its a challenge, nothing more, nothing less. I have run both editions on Bob Supniks excellent emulator (now with PDP-10 support BTW) and they're great, but it'd be ultra cool to boot it directly on a PC. I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open source equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the reboot cycles. I would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least initially. With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to be a little less complex, while still being stable. Just my 0.02 EURO. Jonathan From imp at village.org Wed Jan 30 09:10:18 2002 From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:10:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx> References: <02012717103901.00631@linux> <02012822034503.20290@g4klx> Message-ID: <20020129.161018.09582254.imp@village.org> In message: <02012822034503.20290 at g4klx> Jonathan Naylor writes: : I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open source : equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the reboot cycles. I : would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least initially. With so much : open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple task to find C code : for IDE disc access and such like. I would even suggest getting older Linux : code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to be a little less complex, while : still being stable. There is a stripped down Linux port called Elks to the x86 right now. It seems to work OK for these old 8088 machines (and newer ones in the psion). But I'm still none-the-less drawn towards a v7 port :-)... Warner From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jan 30 11:40:28 2002 From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:40:28 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <20020129204028.B15866@arundel.fortyfour.org> On Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:03:40PM -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Ken Wellsch: > > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" > > in the move from V6 to V7. > > The V7 C compiler accepted =+, but it still accepted += as well; there was > a lot of code written the old way, and nobody wanted to be forced to convert > everything all at once. Apologies, typical of my terse replies - I was actually concerned with clearing up the possible misconception that "=+" was a "feature" of V7 rather than an "obsolete" holdover from V6. I suppose historic accuracy in this context is of little use, I don't know. I certainly can believe one can find such artifacts in the existing V7 code 8-) Cheers, -- Ken From agrier at poofygoof.com Wed Jan 30 11:57:58 2002 From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:57:58 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: ; from jonathan.naylor@ggaweb.ch on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100 Message-ID: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100, Jonathan Naylor wrote: > With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple > task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even > suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to > be a little less complex, while still being stable. Linux!? why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open BSDs? keep it "in the family" so to speak. :) -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com "[...] I generally haven't found IDM guys to be very good live acts, most of them just sit down at their laptop and tweak reaktor." -- Brandon Daniel From sven_dehmlow at web.de Tue Jan 29 23:47:06 2002 From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:47:06 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx> References: <02012717103901.00631@linux> <02012822034503.20290@g4klx> Message-ID: <02012914470600.00631@linux> On Monday 28 January 2002 22:03, Jonathan Naylor wrote: > Hi Sven > > I can't help feel that you've missed the point of wanting to port > UNIX edition 6 or 7 to the PC. Its a challenge, nothing more, > nothing less. I have run both editions on Bob Supniks excellent > emulator (now with PDP-10 support BTW) and they're great, but it'd > be ultra cool to boot it directly on a PC. I can't agree more, it would even be more than ultra cool to be able to boot Unix 6th Edition directly on your PC. But I can't make a complete (and everything else would be senseless) port on my own as this would from my point of view mean to much work for a single individual. I try to do as much as I can but if you want to get a real port we've to found an open source project for reaching this aim. > > I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open > source equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the > reboot cycles. I would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least > initially. With so much open source code out there, it'd be a > relatively simple task to find C code for IDE disc access and such > like. I would even suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x > days as its likely to be a little less complex, while still being > stable. Well, this are details. The question to be answered before we can start thinking about them is this one above: Do we start an open source project for porting Unix or not? > > Just my 0.02 EURO. You should notice that it is dangerous to talk about the EURO with me. I always become very aggressive... ;-) > > Jonathan Sven From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 19:18:42 2002 From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:18:42 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>; from agrier@poofygoof.com on Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800 References: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> Message-ID: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > > With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple > > task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even > > suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to > > be a little less complex, while still being stable. > > Linux!? why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open > BSDs? keep it "in the family" so to speak. :) Well that is what I intended, certainly as a starting reference for floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later. Initially I would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions commentary is available) booting a kernel. Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now open source and free! www.openwatcom.org), nasm etc etc so I should now have enough bits and bobs to compile 16 bit code - as gcc doesnt. Of course if someone wants to rewrite the version of cc that comes with V6 so it generates x86 binaries rather than pdp binaries, that would be the utimate aim I guess. That way you could run V6 on a PC and get it to compile its own kernel.... Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7, partially because of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did. Paul From sven_dehmlow at web.de Thu Jan 31 04:00:49 2002 From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:00:49 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> References: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <02013019004900.00631@linux> On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > Well that is what I intended, certainly as a starting reference > for floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later. > Initially I would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions > commentary is available) booting a kernel. > > Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now > open source and free! www.openwatcom.org), nasm etc etc so I > should now have enough bits and bobs to compile 16 bit code - as > gcc doesnt. > > Of course if someone wants to rewrite the version of cc that comes > with V6 so it generates x86 binaries rather than pdp binaries, that > would be the utimate aim I guess. That way you could run V6 on a > PC and get it to compile its own kernel.... Getting the ported kernel compiled while running itself will not be a serious problem independent from the compiler as long as it's source code is available and it is written for the machine to compile on. Porting a compiler from one operating system to another is a fool compared with porting an operating system from one machine to another. Give me the port of Unix and I'll give you the ported x86 C compiler... ;-) > > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7, partially because > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did. Yes, and I think that v7 was a further development from v6. Developing something further is always more fun and by this more easy than developing something back. Sven From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 31 05:50:31 2002 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:50:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <02013019004900.00631@linux> Message-ID: On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote: > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7, partially because > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did. What a silly argument. V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory management hardware used by them both are the same. And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the PDP-11. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mike at ducky.net Thu Jan 31 05:52:00 2002 From: mike at ducky.net (Mike Haertel) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:52:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net> >Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now >open source and free! www.openwatcom.org) They have announced that it *will be* open source and free, but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c. So, it isn't yet. Right now it's just vaporware. From imp at village.org Thu Jan 31 06:54:03 2002 From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:54:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net> References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net> Message-ID: <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org> In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net> Mike Haertel writes: : >Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now : >open source and free! www.openwatcom.org) : : They have announced that it *will be* open source and free, : but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available : at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade : the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c. : : So, it isn't yet. Right now it's just vaporware. The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel. This is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc. http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/ It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only a few tweaks on FreeBSD. It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but I've not tried it on anything else. Warner From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au Thu Jan 31 07:52:41 2002 From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:52:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 Message-ID: <200201302152.IAA31121@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> I think that v7 would be far easier to port than v6. Although it's not much bigger than v6, the code is a lot cleaner, and there are less machine dependencies. One of the reasons for a lot of the changes between v6 and v7 was a conscious effort to make it more portable . The old assignment operators like '=+' changed to "+=". 'Unsigned' and 'long' data types are missing from v6 (and reflected in the kernel), so all integer calculations were 16 bits. Unsigned ops were done using 'char *'. v7 was ported to the Vax and the Interdata. ioctl is there, and the 'standard io' library. The file seek call in v6 had either block (512) or byte offsets, and v7 introduced lseek to replace it. Only 16 bits were used to store block numbers in inodes, so filesystem sizes were restricted (not a real problem since both v6 and v7 could run happily on a 2.5Mb RK05 disk, including swap space and c compiler). 'vi' ran under v7, but v6 only offered 'ed' (or variants like 'em') and 'qed' If you hadn't guessed, v7 is by far my favourite Unix variant. Lean, clean and without the latter clutter of supporting networking in the kernel. From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net Thu Jan 31 07:40:05 2002 From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:40:05 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 References: Message-ID: <3C586835.DB25F59F@pacbell.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote: > > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at > > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7, partially because > > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode > > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did. > > What a silly argument. V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory > management hardware used by them both are the same. > > And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard > people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the > PDP-11. > Well, I tend to agree that there probably isn't really much difference in the difficulty of porting either V6 or V7 to an Intel x86 processor. The real deciding factor will (and should) be which version you *want* to port and why you want to port it in the first place. While the Intel architecture is very different from that of the PDP-11 it is possible to set up an IA-32 processor in such a way as to give you an environment which is quite similar to the one in which V7 expected to run. 16 bit protected mode can effectively give you a 64k+64k split i&d address space for both user and kernel mode and if you enable paging then you can map the underlying physical memory in 4096 byte pages wherever you want it to be. Once it's all set up correctly, most of the Intel MMU architecture can be ignored and pretty much all the kernel has to do is to manipulate 64 entries in a page table (16+16 for user i+d and 16+16 for kernel i+d). Rather than hack all of the code to build with a modern C compiler I would look seriously at the possibility of getting either pcc or the original Ritchie C compiler to generate x86 code. (This has, of course, been done before as anyone who ever used Xenix version 2.x on Intel machines will know - right down to 32 bit longs with PDP-11 word ordering ...) One possibility which actually isn't as bad as it sounds is to treat the pdp-11 assembler output of the C compiler as an intermediate language and have an additional compiler pass that effectively converted from pdp11 assembler to x86 assembler. A good convertor would do enough basic block analysis to be able to keep track of live registers and condition codes and would essentially recompile from pdp11 to x86 assembler. My guess is that with a little care it should be possible to keep the code expansion resulting from such a translation process to a minimum. Even a fairly simple minded conversion probably wouldn't be too bad. From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 31 08:44:08 2002 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:14:08 +1030 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> References: ; <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> Message-ID: <20020131091407.A38947@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 29 January 2002 at 17:57:58 -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100, Jonathan Naylor wrote: > >> With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple >> task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even >> suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to >> be a little less complex, while still being stable. > > Linux!? why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open > BSDs? keep it "in the family" so to speak. :) An obvious reason to prefer the BSD code is that the kernel interfaces are pretty much the same. There are some significant differences in Linux. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 31 08:47:03 2002 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:17:03 +1030 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org> References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net> <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org> Message-ID: <20020131091703.B38947@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 30 January 2002 at 13:54:03 -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net> > Mike Haertel writes: >>> Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now >>> open source and free! www.openwatcom.org) >> >> They have announced that it *will be* open source and free, >> but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available >> at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade >> the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c. >> >> So, it isn't yet. Right now it's just vaporware. > > The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit > x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel. This > is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc. > > http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/ > > It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only > a few tweaks on FreeBSD. It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but > I've not tried it on anything else. Both the Sixth and Seventh editions contain code which doesn't compile with modern compilers (the dreaded =-, for example). What do you want to do with that? Of course you can fix it, but then you can go further and further and end up with 4.4BSD. I think that if you're going to do this, you'll want to do it with as few code changes as possible. This would really suggest modifying the compiler to generate i86 code. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au Thu Jan 31 09:51:44 2002 From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:51:44 +1100 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 Message-ID: Actually I have 8086 C compilers on my old Altos systems (486 and 586) running Xenix. The OS on the 486 is a very early version of Xenix which is really a slightly modified version of v7. If the machine still works (has not been turned on for a few years), I may be able to set it up so that it can be accessed through a terminal server off the internet so that it can be used to do compiles. I think that Microsoft may own the copyrights on these old compilers (not sure), but it would be nice if the source was publicy available (or even binaries). If the machine still works (has not been turned on for a few years), I may be able to set it up so that it can be accessed through a terminal server off the internet so that it can be used to do compiles. The 486 with v7 has an 8086, 512k memory, 12Meg hard disk. With the full V7 OS, including c (lex, yacc, ...) , troff, and some Microsoft add-ons (fortran, cobol, mutimate??) fits in 7 Meg. Grant Maizles P.S. The 486 and 586 names refer to the number of supported users which the machine can handle and the fact that it has a 8086 CPU. The configs were 486 5 Serial ports (1 for a printer) 586 6 Serial ports I had a customer with a 986 which had 10 serial ports. > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Warner Losh [mailto:imp at village.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:54 AM > To: mike at ducky.net > Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 > > > In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net> > Mike Haertel writes: > : >Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now > : >open source and free! www.openwatcom.org) > : > : They have announced that it *will be* open source and free, > : but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available > : at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade > : the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c. > : > : So, it isn't yet. Right now it's just vaporware. > > The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit > x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel. This > is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc. > > http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/ > > It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only > a few tweaks on FreeBSD. It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but > I've not tried it on anything else. > > Warner > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > From joerg at begemot.org Thu Jan 31 10:29:23 2002 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg Micheel) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:29:23 +1300 Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... In-Reply-To: <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:28:29AM +1030 References: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org> <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20020131132923.A34968@begemot.org> On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:28:29AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" > > in the move from V6 to V7. > > I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there. Indeed, I remember those well, when we had to bootstrap the compiler on a PDP-11 running RSX-11M. Joerg From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au Thu Jan 31 11:03:04 2002 From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:03:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out... Message-ID: <200201310103.MAA01661@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> > > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+=" > > in the move from V6 to V7. > > I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there. I think you'll find that the kernel code is clean, but a lot of the older utilities will show their earlier lineage (including the C compiler) From Lauri.Aarnio at nixu.com Thu Jan 31 19:18:06 2002 From: Lauri.Aarnio at nixu.com (Lauri Aarnio) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:18:06 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:18:42 GMT." <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi> In message <20020130091842.A12653 at apple.ukc.ac.uk>, "P.A.Osborne" writes: >Well that is what I intended, certainly as a starting reference for >floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later. Initially I >would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions commentary is >available) booting a kernel. Have you considered using Tanenbaum's Minix as a reference ? Earlier versions were made for 8086, version 2.0 (which seems to be te latest?) has been ported to 286/386 (= 16 / 32-bit protected mode code depending on a flag). And it has a C-compiler, too. See http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html for more. (I haven't been following Minix development since 1990 or 1991 - around that time we ported the original minix to the 386 (minix 2.0 is a different thing, not based on our port). Anyway, the biggest part of that project was related to protected mode memory management. It wasn't as simple as it sounds, mostly because the original documents (Intel databooks) were misleading, contained lots of errors and also otherwise hard to read (bits of information evenly distributed around the book...). The books may or may not be better now, but in any case, get a working reference implementation. Lauri From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 20:26:49 2002 From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:26:49 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: ; from bqt@update.uu.se on Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:50:31PM +0100 References: <02013019004900.00631@linux> Message-ID: <20020131102649.B19170@apple.ukc.ac.uk> On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:50:31PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote: > > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at > > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7, partially because > > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode > > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did. > > What a silly argument. > V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory > management hardware used by them both are the same. Having looked through the source of v6 and v7 the comments are shall we say minimalistic to people who are not as familiar with the PDP architecture as say Ritchie and Thompson - ie ME! Hence the Lions commentary makes life a darn site easier. I am not disagreeing with the second point you have made. However the point is that V7 is a development on from V6 and the memory management is more complex and thus requires more work. > And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard > people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the > PDP-11. I have heard similar, however the point remains that attempting to port the simpler model is going to be less work that porting the more complex model. At the end of the day porting V6 has been something that I have considered for almost a couple of years now, but time has been lacking. Now that I have time I am going to be able to do some work. If someone hadn't raised the question of porting on this mailing list then I would probably not mentioned what I am considering at all. Why do I want to do this? : 1. To improve my understanding of how OSs work 2. To improve my very shaky intel assembler skills 3. Because I can If out of it I (or anyone else for that matter) produces 10 lines of code that prove benefit to the community (on this list) then its been worth any effort even if we dont see v6(or 7) running on a PC. Regards Paul From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 21:00:42 2002 From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:00:42 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 In-Reply-To: <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi>; from Lauri.Aarnio@nixu.com on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:18:06AM +0200 References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi> Message-ID: <20020131110042.F19170@apple.ukc.ac.uk> On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:18:06AM +0200, Lauri Aarnio wrote: > Have you considered using Tanenbaum's Minix as a reference ? Funnily enough - no. Which was a tad daft as I have a copy of the original Tanenbaum book on a shelf about 2 feet above the monitor.... :-) sheepish grin > It wasn't as simple as it sounds, mostly because the original > documents (Intel databooks) were misleading, contained lots of > errors and also otherwise hard to read (bits of information evenly > distributed around the book...). The books may or may not be better > now, but in any case, get a working reference implementation. I was caught out on the Intel databooks a few years ago, I dread returning... :-) Paul From dionj at caldera.com Thu Jan 24 09:03:37 2002 From: dionj at caldera.com (Dion Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:03:37 -0800 Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources Message-ID: <20020123150337.A12595@sco.com> Dear Warren, and friends, I'm happy to let you know that Caldera International has placed the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style" license. I've attached a PDF of the license letter hereto. Feel free to propogate it as you see fit. I apologize that this has taken so long. We do not have a well regulated archive of these ancient releases, so we must depend upon you UNIX enthusiasts, historians, and original authors to help the community of interested parties figure out exactly what is available, where, and how. Many thanks to Warren Toomey, of PUPS, and to Caldera's Bill Broderick, director of licensing services here. Both of these gentlemen were instrumental in making this happen. And thanks to our CEO, Ransom Love, whose vision for Caldera International prescribes cooperation and mutual respect for the open source communities. Of course, there are thousands of other people who should be acknowledged. I regret I do not have time or wisdom to make a list of them all, but maybe someone does, or has. Anyway, here it is. Feel free to write to us if you want to understand more about how/why Caldera International has released this code, or you have any other comments that we should hear. Sincerely, Dion L. Johnson II - dionj at caldera.com Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts in Caldera Intl. 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I've attached a PDF of the license letter hereto. Feel free to propogate it as you see fit. I apologize that this has taken so long. We do not have a well regulated archive of these ancient releases, so we must depend upon you UNIX enthusiasts, historians, and original authors to help the community of interested parties figure out exactly what is available, where, and how. Many thanks to Warren Toomey, of PUPS, and to Caldera's Bill Broderick, director of licensing services here. Both of these gentlemen were instrumental in making this happen. And thanks to our CEO, Ransom Love, whose vision for Caldera International prescribes cooperation and mutual respect for the open source communities. Of course, there are thousands of other people who should be acknowledged. I regret I do not have time or wisdom to make a list of them all, but maybe someone does, or has. Anyway, here it is. Feel free to write to us if you want to understand more about how/why Caldera International has released this code, or you have any other comments that we should hear. Sincerely, Dion L. Johnson II - dionj at caldera.com Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts in Caldera Intl. 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