From shsrms at erols.com Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 From: shsrms at erols.com (shsrms) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 Subject: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7@erols.com> Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) From neil at skatter.usask.ca Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Message-ID: <199807311647.KAA14549@hydrus.USask.Ca> I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Sat Aug 1 03:40:22 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400 Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Message-ID: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Neil Johnson wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Message-ID: <199807312253.SAA09506@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Neil Johnson wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Sun Aug 2 12:52:00 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... Message-ID: <9808020252.AA17801@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <199808021542.QAA06412@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 References: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Message-ID: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 10:52:42 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 Subject: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Message-ID: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Message-ID: <199808030154.LAA13334@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086@krdl.org.sg> On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 Subject: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Message-ID: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 References: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:12:49 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:14:16 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:14:39 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:15:15 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Greg Lehey writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Message-ID: <199808030315.NAA15369@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Message-ID: <199808030316.NAA15399@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 References: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:31:14 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Greg Lehey writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:42:53 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030342.AA18616@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: What to do now with PUPS In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Message-ID: <199808030345.NAA15453@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Message-ID: <199808030404.OAA15507@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 References: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955@krdl.org.sg> Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 3 23:11:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400 Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society Message-ID: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> < Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" Message-ID: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > > > Greg > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate > binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Tue Aug 4 00:11:52 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" Message-ID: <199808031411.KAA17764@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may > have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete > sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but > little of the code. This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. > The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially > viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947@krdl.org.sg> On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Message-ID: <199808040415.OAA17823@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > Do any of us really want SysV? Not me :-) > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a > binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. > reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. > These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, > for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. >>> >>> Greg >> >> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V >> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have >> the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. >> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate >> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. > > Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of > discussion, maybe that is good. > > What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under > the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to > include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is > a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past > history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's > income. In principle, not a bad idea. > What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things > like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use > (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others > non-commercial maybe). Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. > One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. > Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same > and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same > quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, > it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach > SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. > I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be > workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices > (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. > Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby > licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would > consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only > a binary license of some sort would be all that we could > collectively expect. What would you do with a binary license. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I > am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the > real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to > keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively > seem be be heading towards. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. > If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST) From norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca Tue Aug 4 22:55:30 1998 From: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca (norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400 Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets Message-ID: The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with little religious zeal. The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is `devoted to the preservation of all information related to the versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in. It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding them into the same society or just having several groups that share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name. (Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and `preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point; see the paragraph above. All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he did the single hardest part, that of getting things started. Those of us who think the society should do more things should be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths are. In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment. If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash. I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently (almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare energy out there somewhere. It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support; preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and their current president has some history of preservation work. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST) From neil at skatter.usask.ca Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808041924.NAA16324@hydrus.USask.Ca> I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, binary only licences would be excluded. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 5 05:48:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808041948.AA06220@world.std.com> How about a direct approach. Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> References: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <199808042009.VAA11887@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? > Yes! No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to *us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah'). Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the interdata port, or ?). It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate). As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues. Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange' (by modern standards) machines? --tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a Vax. And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: A Decision :-) Message-ID: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source licences, too. Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists. Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion. I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged. Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually get back to DOING things :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status Message-ID: <199808042321.JAA18748@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page, but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 Message-ID: <199808042356.JAA18931@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Thanks, Warren From grog at lemis.com Wed Aug 5 11:57:53 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:27:53 +0930 Subject: A Decision :-) In-Reply-To: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:11:53AM +1000 References: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980805112753.U25942@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working > name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for > now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to > chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, > maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source > licences, too. > > Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. > Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX > Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:56 +1000 (EST) From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 Message-ID: <199808051511.RAA26558@IAEhv.nl> pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST) wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run 2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. (Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO, but that won't take too long anymore.) The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site, there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed, so I can make the site more complete. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26516 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:08 +1000 (EST) From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Message-ID: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors of these boxes. One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system. Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there. AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them. I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since I could mix and match features on the fly. Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee." Bill Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26958 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:36 +1000 (EST) From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Message-ID: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl> pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as pe>Edition VII. 8< snip >8 Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years. I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very incomplete set on the OS. Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.) Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28239 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:14 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200 References: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468@freebie.lemis.com> On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote: > pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) > pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of > pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be > pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major > pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for > pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. > pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time > pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also > pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as > pe>Edition VII. > > 8< snip >8 > > Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver", by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25327 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:25 +1000 (EST) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the > < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali > < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the VAXen. > Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making > all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This > place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. > We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the > code and preserved it from loss. Amen. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25351 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:40:09 +1000 (EST) From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu Wed Aug 12 09:39:57 1998 From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I'm still alive... Message-ID: <199808112339.TAA10748@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Dear TUHS members, Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine (blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please add my temporary address to the list? From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998 morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX UNIX work goes, a little later, OK? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25374 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:38 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) Subject: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am" Message-ID: <199808112343.JAA00744@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Johnny Billquist: > (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not > into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore I can't contact him to fix it. Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any other Unix-related heritage pages. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01853 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:58:42 +1000 (EST) From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu Thu Aug 13 15:57:30 1998 From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thoughts... Message-ID: <199808130557.BAA14749@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever > machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4. This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04850 for pups-liszt; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:26 +1000 (EST) From rickgc at calweb.com Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998 From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700 Subject: PDP-1103 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0@pop.calweb.com> Dear List, I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax 11/785. The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus 2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95) via rs232 or what ever. Anyone got any ideas how I might do this? Thanks, Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. (916) 568-6744 x36 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28571 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:32:06 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100 Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <199808181431.PAA19142@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Carolyn Pechter wrote: > One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. > Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice > non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in the basement, not working). No source though of course, and without source they are probably less interesting. I remember RTU as being deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01833 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:43 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST) Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses Message-ID: <199808190306.NAA12804@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67. Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado, Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch, Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams are all now licensed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24019 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:31 +1000 (EST) From shsrms at erols.com Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 From: shsrms at erols.com (shsrms) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 Subject: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7@erols.com> Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) From neil at skatter.usask.ca Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Message-ID: <199807311647.KAA14549@hydrus.USask.Ca> I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Sat Aug 1 03:40:22 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400 Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Message-ID: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Neil Johnson wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Message-ID: <199807312253.SAA09506@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Neil Johnson wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Sun Aug 2 12:52:00 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... Message-ID: <9808020252.AA17801@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <199808021542.QAA06412@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 References: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Message-ID: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 10:52:42 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 Subject: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Message-ID: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Message-ID: <199808030154.LAA13334@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086@krdl.org.sg> On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 Subject: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Message-ID: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 References: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:12:49 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:14:16 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:14:39 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:15:15 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Greg Lehey writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Message-ID: <199808030315.NAA15369@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Message-ID: <199808030316.NAA15399@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 References: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:31:14 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Greg Lehey writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu Mon Aug 3 13:42:53 1998 From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <9808030342.AA18616@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: What to do now with PUPS In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Message-ID: <199808030345.NAA15453@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Message-ID: <199808030404.OAA15507@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 References: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955@krdl.org.sg> Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 3 23:11:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400 Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society Message-ID: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> < Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 3 23:42:53 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" Message-ID: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > > > Greg > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate > binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Tue Aug 4 00:11:52 1998 From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" Message-ID: <199808031411.KAA17764@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may > have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete > sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but > little of the code. This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. > The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially > viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) From joerg at krdl.org.sg Tue Aug 4 12:14:43 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947@krdl.org.sg> On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Aug 4 14:15:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Message-ID: <199808040415.OAA17823@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > Do any of us really want SysV? Not me :-) > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a > binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. > reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. > These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, > for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Tue Aug 4 15:09:47 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942@freebie.lemis.com> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. >>> >>> Greg >> >> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V >> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have >> the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. >> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate >> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. > > Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of > discussion, maybe that is good. > > What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under > the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to > include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is > a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past > history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's > income. In principle, not a bad idea. > What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things > like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use > (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others > non-commercial maybe). Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. > One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. > Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same > and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same > quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, > it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach > SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. > I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be > workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices > (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. > Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby > licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would > consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only > a binary license of some sort would be all that we could > collectively expect. What would you do with a binary license. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I > am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the > real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to > keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively > seem be be heading towards. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. > If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST) From norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca Tue Aug 4 22:55:30 1998 From: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca (norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400 Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets Message-ID: The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with little religious zeal. The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is `devoted to the preservation of all information related to the versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in. It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding them into the same society or just having several groups that share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name. (Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and `preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point; see the paragraph above. All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he did the single hardest part, that of getting things started. Those of us who think the society should do more things should be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths are. In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment. If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash. I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently (almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare energy out there somewhere. It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support; preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and their current president has some history of preservation work. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST) From neil at skatter.usask.ca Wed Aug 5 05:24:11 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808041924.NAA16324@hydrus.USask.Ca> I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, binary only licences would be excluded. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 5 05:48:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 Subject: The Unix Society Message-ID: <199808041948.AA06220@world.std.com> How about a direct approach. Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 5 06:09:41 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Subject: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> References: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <199808042009.VAA11887@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? > Yes! No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to *us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah'). Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the interdata port, or ?). It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate). As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues. Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange' (by modern standards) machines? --tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a Vax. And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:11:53 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: A Decision :-) Message-ID: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source licences, too. Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists. Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion. I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged. Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually get back to DOING things :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:21:28 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status Message-ID: <199808042321.JAA18748@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page, but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 5 09:56:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 Message-ID: <199808042356.JAA18931@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Thanks, Warren From grog at lemis.com Wed Aug 5 11:57:53 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:27:53 +0930 Subject: A Decision :-) In-Reply-To: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:11:53AM +1000 References: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980805112753.U25942@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 5 August 1998 at 9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working > name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for > now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to > chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, > maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source > licences, too. > > Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. > Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX > Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. OK. Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:11:56 +1000 (EST) From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Thu Aug 6 01:11:21 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 Message-ID: <199808051511.RAA26558@IAEhv.nl> pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST) wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run 2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. (Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO, but that won't take too long anymore.) The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site, there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed, so I can make the site more complete. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26516 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:08 +1000 (EST) From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Aug 6 07:15:52 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Message-ID: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting to study. This may be because of my history major background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors of these boxes. One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty and 3 UUCP's). It was kind of the Universal Unix system. Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there. AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them. I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since I could mix and match features on the fly. Both of these versions are pretty dead today. I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff). The main drawback to getting these systems are they were was all implemented on SysIII or SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee." Bill Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26958 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:46:36 +1000 (EST) From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Thu Aug 6 09:46:20 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients Message-ID: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl> pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as pe>Edition VII. 8< snip >8 Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years. I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very incomplete set on the OS. Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.) Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28239 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:24:14 +1000 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Aug 6 15:23:54 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930 Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200 References: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468@freebie.lemis.com> On Thursday, 6 August 1998 at 1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote: > pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST) > pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients. There's a number of > pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be > pe>interesting to study. This may be because of my history major > pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for > pe>far too many vendors of these boxes. > pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time > pe>processes. Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also > pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as > pe>Edition VII. > > 8< snip >8 > > Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps? I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver", by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document. It's possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25327 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:37:25 +1000 (EST) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the > < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali > < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the VAXen. > Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making > all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This > place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. > We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the > code and preserved it from loss. Amen. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25351 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:40:09 +1000 (EST) From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu Wed Aug 12 09:39:57 1998 From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I'm still alive... Message-ID: <199808112339.TAA10748@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Dear TUHS members, Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine (blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please add my temporary address to the list? From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998 morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX UNIX work goes, a little later, OK? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25374 for pups-liszt; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:42:38 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST) Subject: Thoughts... In-Reply-To: from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am" Message-ID: <199808112343.JAA00744@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Johnny Billquist: > (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not > into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...) Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore I can't contact him to fix it. Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any other Unix-related heritage pages. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01853 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:58:42 +1000 (EST) From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu Thu Aug 13 15:57:30 1998 From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thoughts... Message-ID: <199808130557.BAA14749@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Warren Toomey writes: > Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever > machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4. This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming Monday, 17-AUG-1998. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579 *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04850 for pups-liszt; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:54:26 +1000 (EST) From rickgc at calweb.com Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998 From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700 Subject: PDP-1103 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0@pop.calweb.com> Dear List, I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax 11/785. The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus 2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95) via rs232 or what ever. Anyone got any ideas how I might do this? Thanks, Rick Copeland Information Systems Manager InterMag, Inc. (916) 568-6744 x36 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28571 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:32:06 +1000 (EST) From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100 Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <199808181431.PAA19142@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Carolyn Pechter wrote: > One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual > universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes. > Concurrent (originally Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice > non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII. I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in the basement, not working). No source though of course, and without source they are probably less interesting. I remember RTU as being deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01833 for pups-liszt; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:04:43 +1000 (EST) From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST) Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses Message-ID: <199808190306.NAA12804@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67. Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado, Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch, Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams are all now licensed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24019 for pups-liszt; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:47:31 +1000 (EST)