From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 16 08:41:28 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:41:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 (fwd) Message-ID: <9701152241.AA14987@dolphin> ----- Forwarded message from Don Kabuss ----- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:22:36 -0600 From: kabussdr at SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (Don Kabuss) Subject: PDP-11 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Hello Warren, My name is Don. I visited your webpage today about the "PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society". Although I'm not inclined to participate, I am however the proud owner of a DEC PDP-11/04. It is complete except for a dumb terminal/ keyboard. It is mounted in two 6 1/2 foot tall steel racks it includes a dual 8" floppy drives with unopened boxes of new 8" disks, one 12" cartridge removable hard drive with 6 cartridges, one 12" reel to reel mass storage tape drive, power supply, supportive hardware and all cabling. Also there is an 18" medium speed drum printer in a sound proof encloser. No it's not for sale. However, I would like to give it away. Obviously it is very heavy and there is no way I could ship it. I would like to know if there is a member of this Society somewhere in the mid-west ( close to St. Louis, Missouri,USA ) that might be interested in having it just for coming to get it? The unit was fully functional when I removed the dumb terminal to use in another application, so it's not just "junk". This unit is mine and not property of the University that I'm affiliated with. I hope this may serve a common interest. Thanks Don. ----- End of forwarded message from Don Kabuss ----- From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO Fri Jan 10 05:18:56 1997 From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom I Helbekkmo) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:18:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Weird TS05 gotcha Message-ID: <970109195614.25256A@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> I just wanted to share an interesting experience that might save someone else some time if the occasion should arise... I've got a Q4 cabinet with two BA23s in the middle, an RA81 below them and a TS05 tape station on top. It's had a KA630 (a MicroVAX II, that is) CPU running VAX/VMS, Ultrix and 4.3BSD-Reno before, and the TS05 has always behaved perfectly. Just recently, I reconfigured this box with a MicroPDP-11/73 (a great little system: two RD54s, twin RX50s, TK50 and TS05, DELQA, DHQ11 and the RA81), and was dismayed to find that my trusty old 9 track tape station no longer worked! After several, unsuccessful attempts to get some (too) old diagnostic software to work, I put the KA630 back in, and ran MDM, the MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor. The tape station checked out perfectly. Back in went the 11/73 -- sure enough, it didn't work. Experimenting showed that I could fsf, bsf rewind and stat the tape station with mt all I wanted, but I couldn't read nor write. The controller always gave an illegal address error, which the manual says is what happens when you use it in a 22 bit qbus while it's configured for 18 bit operation. Of course, that couldn't be for real, right? I mean, the KA630 is a 22 bit system, and it worked on that with several operating systems! Still, it doesn't hurt to check, so I pulled the controller. Yup, it was set to 18 bit mode. Flipped it to 22, turned on buffering at the same time -- and I now have a fast, dependable 1600bpi 9 track again! If anyone can explain how this thing worked in the first place, I'd appreciate it! (Oh, and if anyone has some hints for this youngster about the proper care and feeding of my TS05 as the years go by, that would come in very handy as well!) (Heck, while I'm asking all this, an RK05 with qbus controller and a few packs would be great, too, and would go real well with this old /23 I've got sitting here!) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 23 08:01:23 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:01:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) Message-ID: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ > To: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au > > Warren, > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc at zach1.tiac.net) > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > would be happy to help. Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will get a copy. > As I understand the terms of the SCO license, this should be perfectly > legal so long as it is for non-commerical purposes. There doesn't seem > to be anything in the license that limits me to using an emulator. > Please correct me if you disagree. As far as I can see, you can do anything with the disk image as long as it's non-commercial. So I'm sure that it's perfectly legal. > > Performance is suprisingly good, especially considering that the 11/23+ > was no speed demon even by old PDP standards. And it's amazing - the > whole Unix system fits on a 10Mb pack with about 3.5Mb free! > > The contents of this disk image seem to be pretty limited, and I'm > interested in knowing if any of the missing components (e.g. man pages!!) > are available anywhere. I'm also interested to know if there are any V7 > kernels available with more devices installed. I've got a lot of hardware > on my 11/23, especially a TSV05 but also a RX02 and TU58, that this system > can't use. > Bob Armstrong Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list (oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au), that'd be great, as I archive the mail. Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob Supnik if he has any ideas. Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! Hope so! Cheers, Warren From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 23 09:00:04 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:00:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199701222227.QAA18403@arcturus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Jan 22, 97 04:27:25 pm Message-ID: <9701222300.AA22463@dolphin> In atricle by Neil Johnson: > Unfortunately I cannot justify calling sources for man pages "object code". > Redistributing the man pages may be in the spirit of SCO's agreement, but > is not allowed in the agreement. I do not think they should be added to the > distribution without SCO's permission. > > Finally a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just my understanding of > the licence, for which I give SCO my thanks. > Neil THat was my impression too, Neil. I was being hopeful (as always). We do need to talk with SCO (via Bob Supnik?) to ensure we have SCO's permission first. Thanks! Warren From engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Thu Jan 23 10:49:20 1997 From: engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Michael Engel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 23, 97 09:01:23 am Message-ID: <199701230049.BAA21049@vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> > > Warren, > > > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc at zach1.tiac.net) > > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > > would be happy to help. > > Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will > get a copy. Great ! Finally gotta dig out that old RL02 drive ... How did you manage to get the image onto the RL02 ? > Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. > It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob > Supnik if he has any ideas. Some time ago, the 7th Edition man pages were available on http://plan9.att.com. This machine currently seems to be down, so I can't verify if the man pages are still there. regards, Michael Engel (engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) From bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us Thu Jan 23 15:20:45 1997 From: bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:20:45 PST Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <009AEC32982F5600.00000130@poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> >Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the >image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list >(oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au), that'd be great, as I archive the mail. It was actually quite simple. Bob Supnik's RL02 file is simply a byte for byte dump of a pack. That is, it's just sector 0, head 0, cylinder 0 followed by sector 1, head 0, cylinder 0, ... then all the sectors of head 1, cylinder 0, then cylinder 1, etc. There are no overhead bytes in the file an no interleaving is used. RL02s have 40 sectors of 256 bytes each per track, two heads, and 512 cylinders for a total 10240K bytes per disk (which happens to be exactly the size of Bob's RL02 file :-) You want to be careful about bad sectors, since RL02s do bad block replacement at the device driver level. If your pack has any bad sectors that aren't at exactly the same spot as bad sectors on Bob's original pack (not very likely!), then this isn't going to work. Fortunately error free RL02 packs are relatively easy to come by. Anyway, since the only other RL02 that I have access to is on a VMS system, I had to write a little program for VMS to load the disk using physical I/O. I'd be happy to make this program available if anyone wants it. Once you have the pack loaded, you can just mount it on a 11/23 and use the RL02 hardware boostrap. The Unix boot will start and print a "@" for a prompt. Reply by entering "unix" and carriage return, and you'll see "mem=205376" followed by "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z and Unix will start timesharing, then you can login in using root with the password "pdp". I had two problems in this process. First, I didn't know about the Unix bootstrap program (I'm afraid I've never used Bob's emulator!), and when I saw the "@" I just blindly assumed I'd been dumped back into ODT. Fortunately Jim Carpenter was kind enough to educate me about this. Second, Unix would hang up as soon as I started timesharing. This turned out to be because my LTC in the 11/23 wasn't working, which doesn't bother RT11 at all but it does hang Unix. After I repaired the hardware everything ran fine. If someone has a PDP-11 with a RL02 drive and no way to load V7 on a pack, I am willing to do it if you send me a blank RL02. I believe the SCO license allows this so long as: 1) I don't charge for the service 2) You certify that it is for non-commerical use 3) I include a printed copy of SCO's license Note that this kernel supports only RL02 drives, so unless your -11 has a RL02 drive this system won't work. RD5x and RA8x drives won't do. A similar procedure would probably work with the RK05 images, but I don't have the hardware to try. >Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by >source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I have a 11/23, DLV11J (4 lines), RL02/RLV11, TU58 (on one of the DLV11 ports), RX02/RXV21, and a TSV05 9-track tape. The TSV05 is TS11 compatible, and I'd especially like to have support for it. Bob's kernel supports MASSBUS tapes, but not a TS11. >I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to >ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! SCO's license seems to cover all PDP-11 binaries for 7th Edition Unix, and it doesn't seem to say anything about their origin. Of course, I'm not a lawyer either. Bob From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 16 08:41:28 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:41:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 (fwd) Message-ID: <9701152241.AA14987@dolphin> ----- Forwarded message from Don Kabuss ----- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:22:36 -0600 From: kabussdr at SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (Don Kabuss) Subject: PDP-11 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Hello Warren, My name is Don. I visited your webpage today about the "PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society". Although I'm not inclined to participate, I am however the proud owner of a DEC PDP-11/04. It is complete except for a dumb terminal/ keyboard. It is mounted in two 6 1/2 foot tall steel racks it includes a dual 8" floppy drives with unopened boxes of new 8" disks, one 12" cartridge removable hard drive with 6 cartridges, one 12" reel to reel mass storage tape drive, power supply, supportive hardware and all cabling. Also there is an 18" medium speed drum printer in a sound proof encloser. No it's not for sale. However, I would like to give it away. Obviously it is very heavy and there is no way I could ship it. I would like to know if there is a member of this Society somewhere in the mid-west ( close to St. Louis, Missouri,USA ) that might be interested in having it just for coming to get it? The unit was fully functional when I removed the dumb terminal to use in another application, so it's not just "junk". This unit is mine and not property of the University that I'm affiliated with. I hope this may serve a common interest. Thanks Don. ----- End of forwarded message from Don Kabuss ----- From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO Fri Jan 10 05:18:56 1997 From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom I Helbekkmo) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:18:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Weird TS05 gotcha Message-ID: <970109195614.25256A@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> I just wanted to share an interesting experience that might save someone else some time if the occasion should arise... I've got a Q4 cabinet with two BA23s in the middle, an RA81 below them and a TS05 tape station on top. It's had a KA630 (a MicroVAX II, that is) CPU running VAX/VMS, Ultrix and 4.3BSD-Reno before, and the TS05 has always behaved perfectly. Just recently, I reconfigured this box with a MicroPDP-11/73 (a great little system: two RD54s, twin RX50s, TK50 and TS05, DELQA, DHQ11 and the RA81), and was dismayed to find that my trusty old 9 track tape station no longer worked! After several, unsuccessful attempts to get some (too) old diagnostic software to work, I put the KA630 back in, and ran MDM, the MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor. The tape station checked out perfectly. Back in went the 11/73 -- sure enough, it didn't work. Experimenting showed that I could fsf, bsf rewind and stat the tape station with mt all I wanted, but I couldn't read nor write. The controller always gave an illegal address error, which the manual says is what happens when you use it in a 22 bit qbus while it's configured for 18 bit operation. Of course, that couldn't be for real, right? I mean, the KA630 is a 22 bit system, and it worked on that with several operating systems! Still, it doesn't hurt to check, so I pulled the controller. Yup, it was set to 18 bit mode. Flipped it to 22, turned on buffering at the same time -- and I now have a fast, dependable 1600bpi 9 track again! If anyone can explain how this thing worked in the first place, I'd appreciate it! (Oh, and if anyone has some hints for this youngster about the proper care and feeding of my TS05 as the years go by, that would come in very handy as well!) (Heck, while I'm asking all this, an RK05 with qbus controller and a few packs would be great, too, and would go real well with this old /23 I've got sitting here!) -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 23 08:01:23 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:01:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) Message-ID: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ > To: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au > > Warren, > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc at zach1.tiac.net) > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > would be happy to help. Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will get a copy. > As I understand the terms of the SCO license, this should be perfectly > legal so long as it is for non-commerical purposes. There doesn't seem > to be anything in the license that limits me to using an emulator. > Please correct me if you disagree. As far as I can see, you can do anything with the disk image as long as it's non-commercial. So I'm sure that it's perfectly legal. > > Performance is suprisingly good, especially considering that the 11/23+ > was no speed demon even by old PDP standards. And it's amazing - the > whole Unix system fits on a 10Mb pack with about 3.5Mb free! > > The contents of this disk image seem to be pretty limited, and I'm > interested in knowing if any of the missing components (e.g. man pages!!) > are available anywhere. I'm also interested to know if there are any V7 > kernels available with more devices installed. I've got a lot of hardware > on my 11/23, especially a TSV05 but also a RX02 and TU58, that this system > can't use. > Bob Armstrong Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list (oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au), that'd be great, as I archive the mail. Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob Supnik if he has any ideas. Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! Hope so! Cheers, Warren From wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Jan 23 09:00:04 1997 From: wkt at csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:00:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199701222227.QAA18403@arcturus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Jan 22, 97 04:27:25 pm Message-ID: <9701222300.AA22463@dolphin> In atricle by Neil Johnson: > Unfortunately I cannot justify calling sources for man pages "object code". > Redistributing the man pages may be in the spirit of SCO's agreement, but > is not allowed in the agreement. I do not think they should be added to the > distribution without SCO's permission. > > Finally a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is just my understanding of > the licence, for which I give SCO my thanks. > Neil THat was my impression too, Neil. I was being hopeful (as always). We do need to talk with SCO (via Bob Supnik?) to ensure we have SCO's permission first. Thanks! Warren From engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Thu Jan 23 10:49:20 1997 From: engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Michael Engel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:49:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9701222201.AA22095@dolphin> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 23, 97 09:01:23 am Message-ID: <199701230049.BAA21049@vespa.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> > > Warren, > > > > I'm not sure if the PUPS members would be interested, but I have > > successfully been able to run the 7th Edition RL02 image that accompanies > > Bob Supniks emulator on a real PDP-11/23+.Jim Carpenter (jimc at zach1.tiac.net) > > deserves a special thanks for helping me work out a few problems in bringing > > it up. If any other members of the group are interested in doing the same I > > would be happy to help. > > Bob, I'm cc'ing this reply to the mailing list so that the others will > get a copy. Great ! Finally gotta dig out that old RL02 drive ... How did you manage to get the image onto the RL02 ? > Secondly, I'm unsure of the copyright/legal status of the man pages. > It would be good if they could be released publically. I might ask Bob > Supnik if he has any ideas. Some time ago, the 7th Edition man pages were available on http://plan9.att.com. This machine currently seems to be down, so I can't verify if the man pages are still there. regards, Michael Engel (engel at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) From bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us Thu Jan 23 15:20:45 1997 From: bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:20:45 PST Subject: 7th Edition on a real PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <009AEC32982F5600.00000130@poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us> >Bob, firstly if you can write down the details of how you got the >image installed & running on the 23+, and email it to the mailing list >(oldunix at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au), that'd be great, as I archive the mail. It was actually quite simple. Bob Supnik's RL02 file is simply a byte for byte dump of a pack. That is, it's just sector 0, head 0, cylinder 0 followed by sector 1, head 0, cylinder 0, ... then all the sectors of head 1, cylinder 0, then cylinder 1, etc. There are no overhead bytes in the file an no interleaving is used. RL02s have 40 sectors of 256 bytes each per track, two heads, and 512 cylinders for a total 10240K bytes per disk (which happens to be exactly the size of Bob's RL02 file :-) You want to be careful about bad sectors, since RL02s do bad block replacement at the device driver level. If your pack has any bad sectors that aren't at exactly the same spot as bad sectors on Bob's original pack (not very likely!), then this isn't going to work. Fortunately error free RL02 packs are relatively easy to come by. Anyway, since the only other RL02 that I have access to is on a VMS system, I had to write a little program for VMS to load the disk using physical I/O. I'd be happy to make this program available if anyone wants it. Once you have the pack loaded, you can just mount it on a 11/23 and use the RL02 hardware boostrap. The Unix boot will start and print a "@" for a prompt. Reply by entering "unix" and carriage return, and you'll see "mem=205376" followed by "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z and Unix will start timesharing, then you can login in using root with the password "pdp". I had two problems in this process. First, I didn't know about the Unix bootstrap program (I'm afraid I've never used Bob's emulator!), and when I saw the "@" I just blindly assumed I'd been dumped back into ODT. Fortunately Jim Carpenter was kind enough to educate me about this. Second, Unix would hang up as soon as I started timesharing. This turned out to be because my LTC in the 11/23 wasn't working, which doesn't bother RT11 at all but it does hang Unix. After I repaired the hardware everything ran fine. If someone has a PDP-11 with a RL02 drive and no way to load V7 on a pack, I am willing to do it if you send me a blank RL02. I believe the SCO license allows this so long as: 1) I don't charge for the service 2) You certify that it is for non-commerical use 3) I include a printed copy of SCO's license Note that this kernel supports only RL02 drives, so unless your -11 has a RL02 drive this system won't work. RD5x and RA8x drives won't do. A similar procedure would probably work with the RK05 images, but I don't have the hardware to try. >Finally, many of the members of the PUPS mail list are covered by >source code licenses, so if you can tell us what device you require, I have a 11/23, DLV11J (4 lines), RL02/RLV11, TU58 (on one of the DLV11 ports), RX02/RXV21, and a TSV05 9-track tape. The TSV05 is TS11 compatible, and I'd especially like to have support for it. Bob's kernel supports MASSBUS tapes, but not a TS11. >I'm sure someone can build a kernel for you. I wonder if it's legal to >ship a kernel which has device drivers not in Bob Supnik's disk image?! SCO's license seems to cover all PDP-11 binaries for 7th Edition Unix, and it doesn't seem to say anything about their origin. Of course, I'm not a lawyer either. Bob