From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 08:06:53 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP 11 Discs - UK readers please Message-ID: <199712042206.JAA04976@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Can any of our UK PDP-11 people help this guy out? I don't know if the disks contain Unix or other stuff. Warren ----- Forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:31:07 +0000 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au From: Roger Chan Subject: PDP 11 Discs Dear Warren, I was hoping you might be able to help me regarding some PDP 11 discs which we have here, and wish to extract data from. The discs are labelled: 2315 Disc cartridge 12 Sector DRI Part number 592 We have a number of these discs containg data which we would like to have converted into a format which can easily be read by a PC (ASCII, or whatever.) However, as you can tell by my e mail address, I'm in the UK and I was wondering if you knew of anyone/ any group in Britain who could help me with this task. If you do, I would be very grateful if you forwarded this message on to them. Thank you very much, Roger Chan Dept. of Visual Science Institute of Ophthalmology University College London London EC1V 9EL UK ----- End of forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12017 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:08:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se Fri Dec 5 07:04:13 1997 From: uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se (uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:04:13 -0800 Subject: PUPS Membership Message-ID: <34871ACD.4ACC@usa.net> I just bought an 11/23 with RL02 and i have litle problems setting it up If anybody feels for helping please mail me at mario.jelica at usa.net Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12653 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:26:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 12:25:54 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 05:35:12 pm" Message-ID: <199712050225.NAA05350@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Erin Corliss: > > My roommate and I have a PDP-11/23 Plus that has no disk or tape drives > and no controller board for either. I've been able to boot Unix version 5 > on an emulator here, and from what I've read, this operating system should > be able to boot on the PDP-11/23. The operating system has a kernel in > the root directory called "unix", which is about 23 kilobytes long. I am > trying to set the computer up to boot from a serial port which will be > connected to a Linux machine, which will simulate an RK05 disk drive. > Does anyone know where the low level routines for reading and writing on > an RK series drive are found? Are they built into the kernel or are they > in some separate device driver or module? Also, I need to know what > memory locations are used as registers by the RK05 drive and what commands > can be given to it, so if anyone has spec sheets for it.... Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. Does anybody else have other suggestions??? Best wishes, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12793 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 13:30:01 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 07:14:18 pm" Message-ID: <199712050330.OAA05624@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Erin Corliss: > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the > > kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going > > to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. > > I was looking at a disassembly of the boot sector on one of the disk > images I downloaded and from what I could see the software talks to the > hardware through memory addresses in the area of 177xxx, in a similar > fashion to the way Apple II's and Amiga's talk to their hardware. If I > can get information about what addresses and values are used to control > the RK05, I think it would be possible to gut out some non-essential part > of the kernel, the tape drive controller for example, and replace it with > code that sends and receives RK05 commands and data through the serial > port. I would then search through the kernel and replace all of the > references to the RK05's registers to BSR's that went to appropriate > places in my serial port routines.... I've performed similar kludging on > PC's and Amigas, so I'm pretty certain I can manage it if I have the right > information to start with. > > > If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be > > able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. > > That would be easier... > Eugene, Oregon, USA > > > I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. > > Any chance I could get a peek? Eric, I'll put you on the PUPS mailing list so you'll get any replies from the other members. I'll try and scan in the RK05 docs and put them up via ftp for you. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:37:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 14:33:37 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:33:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920656D2F5@excmso.mso.dec.com> from Bob Supnik at "Dec 4, 97 11:26:15 pm" Message-ID: <199712050433.PAA05757@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Bob Supnik: > Warren, > > The RK05 is implicitly documented in the sources to the PDP-11 > simulator, if that would help. Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Other places are the Lions commentary, and the Unix source of course. Thanks for the reply Bob. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13050 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 14:49:13 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:13 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712050449.PAA05787@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by commands sent over the serial line. The idea is that a person can hand-enter the boot code to retrieve the `boot block' from the simulated disk drive. From there, the bootstrap can retrieve the Unix kernel, which can then use the simulated drive as the root filesystem. The user can then log in, use mkfs to build a filesystem on a real disk drive, and install a suitable Unix kernel without requiring a tape drive. The protocol used must be simple enough that bootstraps can be entered manually - at least to get the boot block from the second computer. Minimalist Protocol ------------------- 4-byte commands are sent from the PDP-11 to the other computer. The command structure is: Byte 0: What command to perform Byte 1: On which remote drive to perform the command Byte 2: Low-order bits of block number Byte 3: High-order bits of block number Blocks are 512 bytes. The commands allow access to 65,536 blocks (32Megs) on 256 virtual disk drives. Of course, an alternate view could be 65,536 on 256 platters, giving 8G of disk space. Commands are: 0x00 NOP Do nothing 0x01 READ Read specified block 0x02 WRITE Write specified block NOP: The second computer does nothing in response. However, this can be used to determine if the PDP-11 is actually sending commands. READ: The second computer returns 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. WRITE: The PDP-11 sends 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. The second computer does nothing in response. Drawbacks: Line noise is gonna really cause havoc. Only one command can be pending, as the PDP-11 has no idea what block is what when it comes back from the second computer. Advantages: Should be easy to write bootstrap and /usr/mdec software, and a kernel-level device driver should be very easy. Altering v5, v6, v7 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD should be straight-forward. Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13490 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:42:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From erin at corliss.com Fri Dec 5 09:45:21 1997 From: erin at corliss.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:45:21 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <34874091.3F778FE9@corliss.com> > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data? Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13703 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:04:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 18:51:33 1997 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:51:33 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <34874091.3F778FE9@corliss.com> Message-ID: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc@falstaf.demon.co.uk> This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc access it has a couple of good thigs to it: 1) The only stuff that has to be loaded over the serial line without the benefit of lots of code that can do error checking is the initial standalone loader. 2) The standalone loader can then treat the serial port as a tape drive which is a relatively simple process as far as the loader is concerned and so you would only need a driver that looked like a TS11 (say) but talked to a serial port. 3) The PC end would then just have a simple prog that would treat the files on the PC as tape files which would make shipping stuff around easy as we could then do this as dump or tar forms which could be just ftp'd etc from archives. It would be slow but it would get things going quite simply. Ideas + comments please? Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14046 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:59:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Dec 5 20:59:28 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:59:28 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712051059.AA16527@world.std.com> It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15046 for pups-liszt; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Dec 6 02:53:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) Message-ID: <9712051653.AA01585@alph02.triumf.ca> > Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a > tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I > actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. > > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. > [Protocol description] > Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding > commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19692 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:15:41 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc@falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am" Message-ID: <199712070415.PAA06858@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Robin Birch: > This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if > something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an > additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line > once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as > a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc > access it has a couple of good thigs to it: I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11 end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I can port it up to v7 and 2BSD. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19707 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:17:16 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287@skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am" Message-ID: <199712070417.PAA06883@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Neil Johnson: > It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives > and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better > choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't present too many problems. I hope :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19719 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:18:42 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am" Message-ID: <199712070418.PAA06903@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used > to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. > Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already > being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could > be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers > already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look. Thanks Tim, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19870 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Dec 7 15:17:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712070517.AA22184@alph02.triumf.ca> > How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could > hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the bootstraps. Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58. The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say, RL01/02 and RX02 drivers. One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21405 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:19:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 03:18:36 1997 From: pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712071718.ZM1055@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > bootstraps. Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11 Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too old to include 11/53 and 11/93). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21591 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Dec 8 04:05:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712071805.AA01939@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > bootstraps. > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...) My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through "Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"): DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the boot menu. > and according to my microPDP-11 > Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only > tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too > old to include 11/53 and 11/93). Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside, of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing the wheel. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21994 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:11:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 07:10:43 1997 From: pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05) References: <9712071805.AA01939@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9712072110.ZM1505@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > > bootstraps. > > > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't > Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) My point was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. > Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system > to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-) > The downside, > of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even than that). And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22424 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:15:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Dec 8 10:14:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712080014.AA24774@alph02.triumf.ca> > Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not > relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) > My point > was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. > > I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) > because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a > maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an excerpt from it: *begin excerpt* +============+======================================================+ | | | | BOOT | DESCRIPTION | | DEVICE | | | | | +============+======================================================+ | BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM | | | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU | +============+======================================================+ Page 2 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE | | | | | | | | | | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. | | | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4| | |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | X | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | X | X | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | | | X | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | X | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 3 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I | | | | | | | | | | part no | | |available |available | | | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU | | | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | X | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | X | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3| +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 4 NOTES: ------ (1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58 chip that can be added to the board: Rev O: Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2 Does NOT support: DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices TU58 ROM: Part number 23-126F3 Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as a bootable device. *end excerpt* It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58 hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-) Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24287 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From zomad at rio.com Tue Dec 9 01:03:34 1997 From: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 > protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is > flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to > allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as kind of a freak show act.... Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA24704 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Dec 9 03:35:02 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote: > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... (Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with software? [Loads of 8" floppies]) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25478 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From zomad at rio.com Tue Dec 9 08:19:01 1997 From: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who draws the crowd. 8^) > I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in > racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering, inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25634 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Dec 9 09:16:11 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am Message-ID: <9712082316.AA10544@alph02.triumf.ca> > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11 is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03 this way. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25904 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:17:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Dec 9 11:17:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712090117.AA23476@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday. > Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s. Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of course.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26200 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:33:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Dec 9 13:32:43 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712090332.AA28543@world.std.com> Can any of our UK PDP-11 people help this guy out? I don't know if the disks contain Unix or other stuff. Warren ----- Forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:31:07 +0000 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au From: Roger Chan Subject: PDP 11 Discs Dear Warren, I was hoping you might be able to help me regarding some PDP 11 discs which we have here, and wish to extract data from. The discs are labelled: 2315 Disc cartridge 12 Sector DRI Part number 592 We have a number of these discs containg data which we would like to have converted into a format which can easily be read by a PC (ASCII, or whatever.) However, as you can tell by my e mail address, I'm in the UK and I was wondering if you knew of anyone/ any group in Britain who could help me with this task. If you do, I would be very grateful if you forwarded this message on to them. Thank you very much, Roger Chan Dept. of Visual Science Institute of Ophthalmology University College London London EC1V 9EL UK ----- End of forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12017 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:08:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se Fri Dec 5 07:04:13 1997 From: uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se (uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:04:13 -0800 Subject: PUPS Membership Message-ID: <34871ACD.4ACC@usa.net> I just bought an 11/23 with RL02 and i have litle problems setting it up If anybody feels for helping please mail me at mario.jelica at usa.net Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12653 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:26:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 12:25:54 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 05:35:12 pm" Message-ID: <199712050225.NAA05350@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Erin Corliss: > > My roommate and I have a PDP-11/23 Plus that has no disk or tape drives > and no controller board for either. I've been able to boot Unix version 5 > on an emulator here, and from what I've read, this operating system should > be able to boot on the PDP-11/23. The operating system has a kernel in > the root directory called "unix", which is about 23 kilobytes long. I am > trying to set the computer up to boot from a serial port which will be > connected to a Linux machine, which will simulate an RK05 disk drive. > Does anyone know where the low level routines for reading and writing on > an RK series drive are found? Are they built into the kernel or are they > in some separate device driver or module? Also, I need to know what > memory locations are used as registers by the RK05 drive and what commands > can be given to it, so if anyone has spec sheets for it.... Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. Does anybody else have other suggestions??? Best wishes, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12793 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 13:30:01 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 07:14:18 pm" Message-ID: <199712050330.OAA05624@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Erin Corliss: > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the > > kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going > > to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. > > I was looking at a disassembly of the boot sector on one of the disk > images I downloaded and from what I could see the software talks to the > hardware through memory addresses in the area of 177xxx, in a similar > fashion to the way Apple II's and Amiga's talk to their hardware. If I > can get information about what addresses and values are used to control > the RK05, I think it would be possible to gut out some non-essential part > of the kernel, the tape drive controller for example, and replace it with > code that sends and receives RK05 commands and data through the serial > port. I would then search through the kernel and replace all of the > references to the RK05's registers to BSR's that went to appropriate > places in my serial port routines.... I've performed similar kludging on > PC's and Amigas, so I'm pretty certain I can manage it if I have the right > information to start with. > > > If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be > > able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. > > That would be easier... > Eugene, Oregon, USA > > > I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. > > Any chance I could get a peek? Eric, I'll put you on the PUPS mailing list so you'll get any replies from the other members. I'll try and scan in the RK05 docs and put them up via ftp for you. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:37:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 14:33:37 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:33:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920656D2F5@excmso.mso.dec.com> from Bob Supnik at "Dec 4, 97 11:26:15 pm" Message-ID: <199712050433.PAA05757@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Bob Supnik: > Warren, > > The RK05 is implicitly documented in the sources to the PDP-11 > simulator, if that would help. Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Other places are the Lions commentary, and the Unix source of course. Thanks for the reply Bob. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13050 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Dec 5 14:49:13 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:13 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712050449.PAA05787@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by commands sent over the serial line. The idea is that a person can hand-enter the boot code to retrieve the `boot block' from the simulated disk drive. From there, the bootstrap can retrieve the Unix kernel, which can then use the simulated drive as the root filesystem. The user can then log in, use mkfs to build a filesystem on a real disk drive, and install a suitable Unix kernel without requiring a tape drive. The protocol used must be simple enough that bootstraps can be entered manually - at least to get the boot block from the second computer. Minimalist Protocol ------------------- 4-byte commands are sent from the PDP-11 to the other computer. The command structure is: Byte 0: What command to perform Byte 1: On which remote drive to perform the command Byte 2: Low-order bits of block number Byte 3: High-order bits of block number Blocks are 512 bytes. The commands allow access to 65,536 blocks (32Megs) on 256 virtual disk drives. Of course, an alternate view could be 65,536 on 256 platters, giving 8G of disk space. Commands are: 0x00 NOP Do nothing 0x01 READ Read specified block 0x02 WRITE Write specified block NOP: The second computer does nothing in response. However, this can be used to determine if the PDP-11 is actually sending commands. READ: The second computer returns 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. WRITE: The PDP-11 sends 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. The second computer does nothing in response. Drawbacks: Line noise is gonna really cause havoc. Only one command can be pending, as the PDP-11 has no idea what block is what when it comes back from the second computer. Advantages: Should be easy to write bootstrap and /usr/mdec software, and a kernel-level device driver should be very easy. Altering v5, v6, v7 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD should be straight-forward. Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13490 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:42:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From erin at corliss.com Fri Dec 5 09:45:21 1997 From: erin at corliss.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:45:21 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <34874091.3F778FE9@corliss.com> > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data? Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13703 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:04:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 18:51:33 1997 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:51:33 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <34874091.3F778FE9@corliss.com> Message-ID: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc@falstaf.demon.co.uk> This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc access it has a couple of good thigs to it: 1) The only stuff that has to be loaded over the serial line without the benefit of lots of code that can do error checking is the initial standalone loader. 2) The standalone loader can then treat the serial port as a tape drive which is a relatively simple process as far as the loader is concerned and so you would only need a driver that looked like a TS11 (say) but talked to a serial port. 3) The PC end would then just have a simple prog that would treat the files on the PC as tape files which would make shipping stuff around easy as we could then do this as dump or tar forms which could be just ftp'd etc from archives. It would be slow but it would get things going quite simply. Ideas + comments please? Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14046 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:59:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Dec 5 20:59:28 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:59:28 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712051059.AA16527@world.std.com> It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15046 for pups-liszt; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Dec 6 02:53:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) Message-ID: <9712051653.AA01585@alph02.triumf.ca> > Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a > tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I > actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. > > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. > [Protocol description] > Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding > commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19692 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:15:41 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc@falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am" Message-ID: <199712070415.PAA06858@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Robin Birch: > This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if > something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an > additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line > once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as > a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc > access it has a couple of good thigs to it: I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11 end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I can port it up to v7 and 2BSD. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19707 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:17:16 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Unix v5 In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287@skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am" Message-ID: <199712070417.PAA06883@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Neil Johnson: > It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives > and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better > choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't present too many problems. I hope :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19719 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Dec 7 14:18:42 1997 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am" Message-ID: <199712070418.PAA06903@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used > to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. > Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already > being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could > be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers > already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look. Thanks Tim, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19870 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Dec 7 15:17:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712070517.AA22184@alph02.triumf.ca> > How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could > hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the bootstraps. Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58. The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say, RL01/02 and RX02 drivers. One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21405 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:19:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 03:18:36 1997 From: pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712071718.ZM1055@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > bootstraps. Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11 Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too old to include 11/53 and 11/93). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21591 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Dec 8 04:05:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712071805.AA01939@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > bootstraps. > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...) My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through "Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"): DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the boot menu. > and according to my microPDP-11 > Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only > tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too > old to include 11/53 and 11/93). Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside, of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing the wheel. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21994 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:11:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 07:10:43 1997 From: pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05) References: <9712071805.AA01939@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9712072110.ZM1505@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > > bootstraps. > > > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't > Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) My point was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. > Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system > to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-) > The downside, > of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even than that). And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22424 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:15:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Dec 8 10:14:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <9712080014.AA24774@alph02.triumf.ca> > Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not > relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) > My point > was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. > > I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) > because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a > maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an excerpt from it: *begin excerpt* +============+======================================================+ | | | | BOOT | DESCRIPTION | | DEVICE | | | | | +============+======================================================+ | BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM | | | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU | +============+======================================================+ Page 2 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE | | | | | | | | | | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. | | | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4| | |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | X | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | X | X | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | | | X | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | X | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 3 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I | | | | | | | | | | part no | | |available |available | | | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU | | | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | X | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | X | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3| +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 4 NOTES: ------ (1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58 chip that can be added to the board: Rev O: Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2 Does NOT support: DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices TU58 ROM: Part number 23-126F3 Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as a bootable device. *end excerpt* It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58 hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-) Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24287 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From zomad at rio.com Tue Dec 9 01:03:34 1997 From: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 > protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is > flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to > allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as kind of a freak show act.... Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA24704 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Dec 9 03:35:02 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote: > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... (Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with software? [Loads of 8" floppies]) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25478 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From zomad at rio.com Tue Dec 9 08:19:01 1997 From: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who draws the crowd. 8^) > I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in > racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering, inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25634 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Dec 9 09:16:11 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am Message-ID: <9712082316.AA10544@alph02.triumf.ca> > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11 is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03 this way. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25904 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:17:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Dec 9 11:17:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712090117.AA23476@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday. > Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s. Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of course.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26200 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:33:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Dec 9 13:32:43 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Message-ID: <199712090332.AA28543@world.std.com>